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  1. #26
    Senior Comedian Member -The Agent-'s Avatar
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by Modaro View Post
    Yeh they mastered shape manipulation so they can do rasengan rite" well guess what naruto can do rasengan to if u somehow missed that.

    So Konahamaru hasn't master shape manipulation either

    Do u understand how wrong what u said is, how the hell can a technique that is the highest level of shape manipulation be done by someone who hasn't master shape manipulation. DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW SMART YOU ARE SOUNDING.

    Why then didn't naruto suddenly master shape manipulation at the valley of end, where he did a one handed rasengan?
    Bruh don't be mad atleast I was nice about your Thread topic

    Naruto+Konohamaru= YOUNG they still have time to actually master rasengan with one hand. They haven't mastered that part of shape manipulation. Naruto used it with one hand at the valley of the end because of the fox's cloak... Rasengan is the ultimate technique for shape manipulation. Although naruto can do the technique and spam it on every enemy hefaces against, Naruto did not MASTER shape manipulation which is a one hand rasengan... Minato J man and Kakashi mastered it because they can do rasengan with one hand, and make it various sizes with no problem...
     
         
    Last edited by -The Agent-; 12-11-2010 at 06:16 PM.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Modaro's Avatar
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by Minato Sensei View Post
    I agree that he has been using it for a long time and he could have mastered it by now but if kishi wants him to do it using his signature jutsu then why not?
    We don't know about Jyraia how much it took him to master it... i agree he didn't spend 3 years but who knows for sure? and it doesn't really matter.
    Yea the sharingan can copy jutsu, especially those which require hand seals... but the rasengan doesn't and as also stated by kakashi even if the rasengan can copy jutsu/moves the user still needs the skill to perform them so no shortcuts here.

    Yes naruto was in control as i said the rasengan was made from his chakra and he used the kiuby's chakra as a shield, a capsule , something to compress the rasengan and maintain it's shape while he focused on the power and rotation... it is the same concept as with the clones...
    Alright Kakashi is a very skilled Jonnin who was able to master 3 elements in manga(Earth, Lightening, Water) and 4 in anime(all manga + Fire). Kakashi is also a ninja who can control very acuately his chakra, hence him being a better assin type ninja in my opinion. Can u honestly tell me kakashi lacks the skill to acurately copy the rasengan with sharingan?

    As for the on handed rasengan in one tailed form u nor I know what went on with that, but consider this.

    Naruto had never used the FOX CLOAK before(notice I didn't say fox's chakra).
    How would he instantly know that he can use the foxes chakra cloak to help compress the rasengan. (If kshi states other wise then he is a .,..,.,.,.,).

    Lets consider he did some how instantly know he could use the fox cloak to compress the rasengan. In consideration to that, why would naruto forget or not mention that when Bee or the 8tails told him not to use clones?

    Please Reply I want to hear ur opinion
     
         

  3. #28
    Senior Member Modaro's Avatar
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by -The Agent- View Post
    Bruh don't be mad atleast I was nice about your Thread topic

    Naruto+Konohamaru= YOUNG they still have time to actually master rasengan with one hand. They haven't mastered that part of shape manipulation. Naruto used it with one hand at the valley of the end because of the fox's cloak... Rasengan is the ultimate technique for shape manipulation. Although naruto can do the technique and spam it on every enemy hefaces against, Naruto did not MASTER shape manipulation which is a one hand rasengan... Minato J man and Kakashi mastered it because they can do rasengan with one hand, and make it various sizes with no problem...
    As I said before Naruto has been doing rasengan 3yrs + don't u think that is enough time to master it?

    And I'm not mad does a guy have to be angry to use the worl HELL ?
     
         

  4. #29
    Senior Comedian Member -The Agent-'s Avatar
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by Modaro View Post
    As I said before Naruto has been doing rasengan 3yrs + don't u think that is enough time to master it?

    And I'm not mad does a guy have to be angry to use the worl HELL ?

    of course it is enough time to master it, but sadly he hasn't. I have no idea what he was doing during the time skip, all he really learned was Odama Rasengan, and that takes him and his clone to create and use it.
     
         

  5. #30
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Well i agree with what you said.
    It is weird how naruto used it for the first time and knew how.. and then never used or mentioned it again.
    And also i agree with what you said about kakashi... he already knew chidori by the time he learned the rasengan so he had the basics of shape manipulation but we sill don't know how much it took him to perfect it
    Oh and to answer all questions: remember that naruto is the number one most unpredictable ninja ever and so everything is possible for him
     
         

  6. #31
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by Modaro View Post
    I have a problem with naruto Saying he needs a clone to do rasengan.

    1. THE SHADOW CLONE TECHNIQUE
    This Technique divides the user into equal copies of him/herself right down to chakra. The clones can move independently from the original naruto's will but does not have separate personalities. Therefore Naruto will think of a plan or strategy and his clone will have that same plan to carry out. They are basically and simply another naruto, not tied to one mind, they can think for themselves.
    __________________________________________________ _________
    Now the reason Naruto need his clone to do rasengan is because he could not concentrate on both shape manipulation, compressing the chakra at the same time. So basically it is two separate naruto's doing the same technique, Two Heads in the same Hole.

    When Naruto had the one tailed cloak at the valley of end he did a one handed rasengan, kishi didn't tell us how he did it so here is what I think. Sasuke couldn't predict the movements of both naruto and the the chakra cloak, he stated "it was like the chakra had a mind of its own." Well yes he was correct, the 9tails was in control, while naruto stile had some control. The fox was the next mind/head focusing chakra in that situation helping to preform the rasengan.
    __________________________________________________ _________
    2. The TAILED BEAST BOMB
    It was said that this move was the inspiration for rasengan having the same, rotation and compression principles. Therefore Naruto should use clones, but he was told not to use clones.

    Instead he was forced to create chakra arms from the Rikodu cloak.

    Because Naruto is controlling the fox chakra it should still prove too difficult a task since there is only one mind involved in making the beast bomb, the same dumb naruto mind that could not handle the overload of rotation and compression in the beginning of that same manga. How the hell all of a sudden is it that he is able to COMPRESSION, ROTATION, by himself. I mean all along it was too much load on his brain to preform two tasks at once so he created another copy of himself so it can do the other task for him and ease the overload on his tiny brain.

    I BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION IN MANGA
    I haven't read all previous replies but, if someone else said similar/same, I will prove you wrong for 2nd time

    1. Naruto could create rasengan with one hand in valley of the end due to chakra shroud of fox thus meaning that he only had to release and rotate while shroud would take care of compression.

    2. Answer is similar like the one of 1. question. If you remember from manga, jinchuriki user feels bijuu's chakra like extensions of his own body. So, if naruto for example, had four arms like that sound guy from "hunt for sasuke" arc, he would be able to do rasengan without shadow clones. Chakra arms are the same thing. He feels and controls them like his own arms. I guess that chakra shroud is also helping in creation of tailed beast rasengan.

    Satisfied?
     
         

  7. #32
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    [QUOTE=Modaro;2544675]I have a problem with naruto Saying he needs a clone to do rasengan.
    On the present manga I think is not anymore dumb. One reason is he learns to invent unique jutsu using the shadow clone technique, since each shadow clone has a mind of its on, allowing the the clone to think individually to develop the a jutsu is feasible. He might have found a way how to do both shape manipulation and chakra compression at the same time.
     
         

  8. #33
    Member AndreJNZ's Avatar
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    You guys forgot something, I think.
    While Naruto was in Sage Mode, how was he able to form the Rasengan and hit one of Pains' bodies so fast, eh??? Chapter 430 Page 17-18. That attack was WAAAYYY too fast for him to make a clone and then form the Rasengan and intercept that bastard.
    What I can explain for myself concerning that is that Sage Mode just makes him control Chakera a lot better. He forms the Rasen-Shuriken real quick as well. What gives you guys?
    Have you had your heads too deep up your asses, or what?
     
         

  9. #34
    Senior Member Modaro's Avatar
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaziname View Post
    I haven't read all previous replies but, if someone else said similar/same, I will prove you wrong for 2nd time

    1. Naruto could create rasengan with one hand in valley of the end due to chakra shroud of fox thus meaning that he only had to release and rotate while shroud would take care of compression.

    2. Answer is similar like the one of 1. question. If you remember from manga, jinchuriki user feels bijuu's chakra like extensions of his own body. So, if naruto for example, had four arms like that sound guy from "hunt for sasuke" arc, he would be able to do rasengan without shadow clones. Chakra arms are the same thing. He feels and controls them like his own arms. I guess that chakra shroud is also helping in creation of tailed beast rasengan.

    Satisfied?
    1. YOU nor I know if that was the case and if it was then why didn't he automatically know that when in his new fox mode.

    2.Thats a load of unethical ****
     
         

  10. #35
    Senior Member Modaro's Avatar
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    [QUOTE=Pradz;2550976]
    Quote Originally Posted by Modaro View Post
    I have a problem with naruto Saying he needs a clone to do rasengan.
    On the present manga I think is not anymore dumb. One reason is he learns to invent unique jutsu using the shadow clone technique, since each shadow clone has a mind of its on, allowing the the clone to think individually to develop the a jutsu is feasible. He might have found a way how to do both shape manipulation and chakra compression at the same time.
    What I'm saying is all of a sudden out of nowhere he can concentrate on every thing now. Then there is no need for the spare hands.
     
         

  11. #36
    Senior Member Modaro's Avatar
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by AndreJNZ View Post
    You guys forgot something, I think.
    While Naruto was in Sage Mode, how was he able to form the Rasengan and hit one of Pains' bodies so fast, eh??? Chapter 430 Page 17-18. That attack was WAAAYYY too fast for him to make a clone and then form the Rasengan and intercept that bastard.
    What I can explain for myself concerning that is that Sage Mode just makes him control Chakera a lot better. He forms the Rasen-Shuriken real quick as well. What gives you guys?
    Have you had your heads too deep up your asses, or what?
    That rite u tell them !!!

    Naruto is no Magician
     
         

  12. #37
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    @AndreJNZ that's prof that Naruto doesn't have great chakra control because of the kyuubi. He can and knows how to use a rasengan without clones but the kyuubi messes with his chakra control, even now it would seem he does have full chakra control.
     
         

  13. #38
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by niblack89 View Post
    @AndreJNZ that's prof that Naruto doesn't have great chakra control because of the kyuubi. He can and knows how to use a rasengan without clones but the kyuubi messes with his chakra control, even now it would seem he does have full chakra control.
    Doesn't have? No, probably not,eh? Though he still uses two clones to form the Rasen-Shuriken, but just a lot faster...WAY lot faster.Hehehe

    As well as for the rasengan.

    So basically he CAN form a Rasengan with one hand, so far only in Senin Modo.
     
         

  14. #39
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by AndreJNZ View Post
    Doesn't have? No, probably not,eh? Though he still uses two clones to form the Rasen-Shuriken, but just a lot faster...WAY lot faster.Hehehe

    As well as for the rasengan.

    So basically he CAN form a Rasengan with one hand, so far only in Senin Modo.
    His last fight with the kyuubi showed he could use a FRS with one clone if it counts
     
         

  15. #40
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    dudes have any of you ever thought of the fact that naruto could maybe have learnt to do rasengan with just one hand but just chose not to waste his effort learning it? why should he try to learn it when he can use what he knows perfectly. thats food for thought
     
         

  16. #41
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    One clone. Yes I do recall. Let me go see------->

    Yup. Even faster. Basically, he forms the shape himself and uses a clone for the Nature manipulation. In Sage Mode, of course.
     
         

  17. #42
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    naruto can learn to do rasengan with just one hand. it's just that he feels comfortable with the way he does it now.
     
         

  18. #43
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by lord niijima View Post
    naruto can learn to do rasengan with just one hand. it's just that he feels comfortable with the way he does it now.
    Yeah I was thinking that, it makes sense... Why change your tactics when it works.
     
         

  19. #44
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by -The Agent- View Post
    Yeah I was thinking that, it makes sense... Why change your tactics when it works.
    One word SPEED, im guessing for naruto to make a shadow clone and then form the rasengan he need's bettwen 3-5 seconds and in the ninja world that's a awful amount of time, with one handed rasengan he could do it in 1-2 seconds
     
         

  20. #45
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by Modaro View Post
    I have a problem with naruto Saying he needs a clone to do rasengan.

    1. THE SHADOW CLONE TECHNIQUE
    This Technique divides the user into equal copies of him/herself right down to chakra. The clones can move independently from the original naruto's will but does not have separate personalities. Therefore Naruto will think of a plan or strategy and his clone will have that same plan to carry out. They are basically and simply another naruto, not tied to one mind, they can think for themselves.
    __________________________________________________ _________
    Now the reason Naruto need his clone to do rasengan is because he could not concentrate on both shape manipulation, compressing the chakra at the same time. So basically it is two separate naruto's doing the same technique, Two Heads in the same Hole.

    When Naruto had the one tailed cloak at the valley of end he did a one handed rasengan, kishi didn't tell us how he did it so here is what I think. Sasuke couldn't predict the movements of both naruto and the the chakra cloak, he stated "it was like the chakra had a mind of its own." Well yes he was correct, the 9tails was in control, while naruto stile had some control. The fox was the next mind/head focusing chakra in that situation helping to preform the rasengan.
    __________________________________________________ _________
    2. The TAILED BEAST BOMB
    It was said that this move was the inspiration for rasengan having the same, rotation and compression principles. Therefore Naruto should use clones, but he was told not to use clones.

    Instead he was forced to create chakra arms from the Rikodu cloak.

    Because Naruto is controlling the fox chakra it should still prove too difficult a task since there is only one mind involved in making the beast bomb, the same dumb naruto mind that could not handle the overload of rotation and compression in the beginning of that same manga. How the hell all of a sudden is it that he is able to COMPRESSION, ROTATION, by himself. I mean all along it was too much load on his brain to preform two tasks at once so he created another copy of himself so it can do the other task for him and ease the overload on his tiny brain.

    I BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS A MAJOR CONTRADICTION IN MANGA

    Good point, but the reasons why Naruto needs a clone hasn't really been discussed by kishi very well. I believe there's a bigger reason why Naruto needs a close throughout his life. Also note naruto in sage mode doesn't need a clone and he only needed one clone to form a wind rasengan when he was fighting the fox in his mind.

    So In my opinion the reason why Naruto all this time was unable to do a rasnegan by himself was stemmed by the fox himself. So now that fox can't control naruto directly he's able to do a solo rasengan. I talked about this in that thread "naruto a unique host" if you call our arguments.

    Long story short I think alot of people didn't think much of naruto needing a clone to do a rasengan but I reakon its something kishi added to the story for GOOD reason. And I reakon its ALL FOX RELATED.
     
         

  21. #46
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by -The Agent- View Post
    Yeah I was thinking that, it makes sense... Why change your tactics when it works.
    HMMMMMMMMMMM....
    first it wold be alone faster second he would save chakra from making a clone.
     
         

  22. #47
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    Good point, but the reasons why Naruto needs a clone hasn't really been discussed by kishi very well. I believe there's a bigger reason why Naruto needs a close throughout his life. Also note naruto in sage mode doesn't need a clone and he only needed one clone to form a wind rasengan when he was fighting the fox in his mind.

    So In my opinion the reason why Naruto all this time was unable to do a rasnegan by himself was stemmed by the fox himself. So now that fox can't control naruto directly he's able to do a solo rasengan. I talked about this in that thread "naruto a unique host" if you call our arguments.

    Long story short I think alot of people didn't think much of naruto needing a clone to do a rasengan but I reakon its something kishi added to the story for GOOD reason. And I reakon its ALL FOX RELATED.
    I like your Opinion, but I disagree about the Fox influence. Just my Opinion.
     
         

  23. #48
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by Modaro View Post
    HMMMMMMMMMMM....
    first it wold be alone faster second he would save chakra from making a clone.
    You do realize that when the Clone dissipates, the chakra that was in the clone is returned back to the Jutsu Caster? Naruto continually dispels the Clones after forming the Rasengan. So there really isn't ckakra lost.
     
         

  24. #49
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    Good point, but the reasons why Naruto needs a clone hasn't really been discussed by kishi very well. I believe there's a bigger reason why Naruto needs a close throughout his life. Also note naruto in sage mode doesn't need a clone and he only needed one clone to form a wind rasengan when he was fighting the fox in his mind.

    So In my opinion the reason why Naruto all this time was unable to do a rasnegan by himself was stemmed by the fox himself. So now that fox can't control naruto directly he's able to do a solo rasengan. I talked about this in that thread "naruto a unique host" if you call our arguments.

    Long story short I think alot of people didn't think much of naruto needing a clone to do a rasengan but I reakon its something kishi added to the story for GOOD reason. And I reakon its ALL FOX RELATED.
    Good point indeed because naruto's seal was designed let some of the foxes chakra naturally mix with naruto's own. If you have notice the fox is very unconcerned when it comes to chakra use, it usually over does it, and I think naruto has inherited that. Because naruto as stated by kakashi with the clone jutsu in the early's Naruto usually adds way to much chakra when he is trying to learn a jutsu.

    The point I'm trying to make is that naruto lacked the concentration all along to focus on all the tasks involved in rasengan which is why he need ed a clone but in Rikudo mode he jut needs an extra pair of hands. I found that to be a contradiction in its self. It felt like Kishi didn't want 1000 Rikudo Naruto's running around(because that would be total pwnage) so he said no clones, but he still wanted him to complete the rasengan so he just gave him some extra arms.

    Think about it its crazy rite
     
         

  25. #50
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    Re: Rasengan Contradiction |Clones|

    Quote Originally Posted by Modaro View Post
    HMMMMMMMMMMM....
    first it wold be alone faster second he would save chakra from making a clone.
    Naruto is a Chakra bottomless pit saving chakra is never on his mind. but time? Remember when he destroyed the deva path? 5 second interval used a clone rasengan and the clone launched him at the Path just in time. I don't think speed is a problem. (just my opinion though)
     
         

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