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  1. #1
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Please keep in mind that I'm comparing Raiton ninjutsu and nothing else. This is not a versus thread in the conventional sense.

    I'll use some previous posts, from the top raiton user debate thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    So, people, does Raikiri beat the Raikages armor?

    I believe it does, as Chidori is an inferior version of the Raikiri yet it managed to penetrate the armor, to a degree. Raikiri is stated to be a "more concentrated version" on the Wiki. It's name even hints at it, and the kicker:

    Kakashi created the technique when Kumo and Konoha were at war. Could he have (at least subconsciously) been considering its effect on the Raikages legendary technique?

    It might even have worked, as a tiny silver-haired kid about old enough to still be play-pretending to be a ninja couldn't possibly be high on the thread list of any Kage, and he'd have trusted in the Armor to protect him in any case.

    (YES; YOU HEARD ME; KID KAKASHI IS [IN POSSESION OF THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE] OVER ANY KAGE, EXCEPT MINATO!!!!!)
    Raikiri as such seems to overpower (or at least pierce) even the highest shown tier of Raiton-based defense.

    So how does it compare with Kirin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Kirin is a situational jutsu of great strength yet equally great drawbacks. It IS stronger than any of Kakashi's Raiton, true (except maybe the Raiden, as slicing through V2 Jinks like butter seems like it could give even Kirin trouble, and Raiden is easier, cheaper and MUCH more versatile) (we'll table any discussions about Raikiri slicing through Kirin for now) yet the Third Raikage deals with Kirin easily. Interestingly, it seems like Kakashi might be able to take the Third (refer to my previous post about Raikiri and the Raikages armor) in a Raiton battle, so you have something like Rock-Paper-Scissors.

    The order is like this:

    Sasuke>Third>Kakashi>Sasuke

    Yet the argument can be made that Kakashi wins overall. For one, he invented most if not all of his demonstrated Raiton techs (Sasuke's are all variations of Chidori) and that might not be the case for the Raikage. Anyway, Kakashi seems to beat the Raikage, so he would be on top.
    Kirin (the lightning bolt[or dragon], though I've in effect proven that it's not any more powerful than one, I'll show you) versus the Raikiri:

    Raikiri has been stated to have cut a lightning bolt in half, and I HIGHLY doubt that Kirin is any stronger than your average lightning bolt. Proof(ish) (WITH SCIENCE): This is in response to a question comparing Kirin and regular lightning:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Hey, it was you who said ninja arts don't compare to nature, and I wholly agree. (Pansy ass meteor, Madara!)

    If I'm serious, yes, I do. **** YES I DO!!

    Lightning ALWAYS goes for surface targets, and can cause trees to EXPLODE, (Take that, Hashirama!)

    Lightning is usually around 5 km long, and produces around 500 megajoules of energy from a single strike. Source Wikipedia.

    For reference, that's about 1/15000th of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs.

    Yeah, that's 1/15000th of an atomic bomb directed in a precise death ray.

    It would effortlessly penetrate the mountain, if it could somehow be aimed.

    EDIT: I actually learned a lot from this.
    This is in response to the same guy asking about whether lightning could destroy a mountain on the level of Kirin:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Naruto's universe is different from ours, and it's possible Sasuke gathered several lightning bolts or enhanced [a single one] in some way.

    An UNFOCUSED lightning bolt has roughly equivalent energy to a 120 kilograms of TNT, so it would definitely cause significant damage to the SURFACE of a mountain.

    Thanks
    So, if Kakashi can handle regular lightning he can handle Kirin. Raikiri thus seems stronger than the (otherwise) strongest (or possibly third strongest) offensive Raiton ninjutsu.

    Now, the Hell Stab (Third Raikage's single finger tech, it might not actually be called that) and the Raikiri both have never shown an upper limit to piercing power. The Raikiri seems equally likely to cut through Raikage's defense, so... other feats:

    Hell Stab can cut through Hachibi's tails with ease.

    Raikiri (well, Raiden, which is two of them connected by a chain) slices through V2 Jinchuuriki's tails like butter.


    Still seems pretty even. Anyway, Raikiri is on par with the othewise strongest Raiton offense shown in the manga, and CAN pierce the greatest Raiton defense.




    So yeah, Kakashi (and the Third Raikage) are both Supreme Anti-Raiton Specialists. You can't be truly familiar with countering something 'til you've mastered it, after all.

    Anyway, Kakashi invented all the techs shown while the is a chance (but a slim one) that someone else, perhaps an earlier Raikage, invented the Third's jutsu.

    Kakashi reigns supreme!


    SUMMARY:

    Raikiri > Raikage Lightning Armor

    Raikiri > Kirin

    Raikiri = Hell Stab

    Jutsu creation:

    Kakashi > Third Raikage. Not certain, but more probable than not.



    Kakashi > Awesome.
     
         
    Last edited by Piratefish; 11-18-2012 at 06:57 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    sorry, i didn't read because it's too long! hell stab > raikiri
    -raikiri is only piercing attack
    -hell stab is piercing attack + strength ( third raikage own strength and speed )
     
         

  3. #3
    Senior Member Tsunade no Sama's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Summary please.
     
         

  4. #4
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by November Nolove View Post
    sorry, i didn't read because it's too long! hell stab > raikiri
    -raikiri is only piercing attack
    -hell stab is piercing attack + strength ( third raikage own strength and speed )
    That's sort of useless of you. Raikiri CAN be used to cut, as when Kakashi frees Naruto from Kakuzu.


    And the two attacks have similar feats, even against the Raikage Armor and Bijuu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cho View Post
    Summary please.
    I suppose I'll make one. Can't promise quality.

    EDIT: There you go.
     
         
    Last edited by Piratefish; 11-18-2012 at 06:17 AM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    That's sort of useless of you. Raikiri CAN be used to cut, as when Kakashi frees Naruto from Kakuzu.


    And the two attacks have similar feats, even against the Raikage Armor and Bijuu.



    I suppose I'll make one. Can't promise quality.

    EDIT: There you go.
    sorry, no matter you tell me that raikiri > hell stab or raikiri = hell stab, i won't accept it until i see the manga proof. i'll never give up. i'll never go back on my words. this is my commenter way.
     
         

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    Member NinjaTendo 64's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    AHAHS
    summary nice & easy i like it:scorps:
     
         

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    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by November Nolove View Post
    sorry, no matter you tell me that raikiri > hell stab or raikiri = hell stab, i won't accept it until i see the manga proof. i'll never give up. i'll never go back on my words. this is my commenter way.
    If you won't read my manga proof you have no business saying stuff like this.
     
         

  8. #8
    ★ X mark the SPOT ★ u wanna die's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    your saying kakashi > third raikage? even though it only pierce a little bit tiny degree as u say it.. haha.. lol bro... 1 tech cannot decide the fight ... keep that in mind!
     
         

  9. #9
    Senior Member suzano's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Rakiri>Kirin no way
     
         

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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    If you won't read my manga proof you have no business saying stuff like this.
    because it's too damn long. summarize with manga picture, it would be easily to read. i didn't flame you. i just try to talk to you. please don't use your anger toward me.
     
         

  11. #11
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by suzano View Post
    Rakiri>Kirin no way
    Here's the problem. Raikiri csn cut through lightning. Sasuke mentioned that he is simply controlling natural lightning meaning it has barely if ANY chakra embedded into it. The question comes down to two things: 1. Is Kirin one lightning bolt? 2. If Raikiri could cut through one bolt of lightning does it mean it can't cut through more than one?

    If question 1 is a yes, then Raikiri > Kirin. If question two is a yes Raikiri is greater than, less than, or equal to Kirin based on how many bolts of lightning make up Kirin and how many bolts Raikiri cuts through.

    Since we do not know the maximum bolt cuttage of Raikiri and we don't know how many bolts compose Kirin we cannot say which tech is stronger.

    One could say it is like comparing a sniper rifle (Raikiri) to a rocket launcher (Kirin)...which one is more dangerous? Depends as a rocket does more damage one area, but a sniper is more damage on one specific place. Also depending on velocity and god's grace in luck is it possible for a snoper rifle to shoot an incomminng rocket?!

    IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT WE DON'T KNOW
     
         

  12. #12
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by KGB Kakuzu View Post
    Here's the problem. Raikiri csn cut through lightning. Sasuke mentioned that he is simply controlling natural lightning meaning it has barely if ANY chakra embedded into it. The question comes down to two things: 1. Is Kirin one lightning bolt? 2. If Raikiri could cut through one bolt of lightning does it mean it can't cut through more than one?

    If question 1 is a yes, then Raikiri > Kirin. If question two is a yes Raikiri is greater than, less than, or equal to Kirin based on how many bolts of lightning make up Kirin and how many bolts Raikiri cuts through.

    Since we do not know the maximum bolt cuttage of Raikiri and we don't know how many bolts compose Kirin we cannot say which tech is stronger.

    One could say it is like comparing a sniper rifle (Raikiri) to a rocket launcher (Kirin)...which one is more dangerous? Depends as a rocket does more damage one area, but a sniper is more damage on one specific place. Also depending on velocity and god's grace in luck is it possible for a snoper rifle to shoot an incomminng rocket?!

    IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT WE DON'T KNOW
    I did attempt to explain how Kirin can EASILY be only a single bolt, which should make it cuttable for Raikiri.
     
         

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    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by November Nolove View Post
    because it's too damn long. summarize with manga picture, it would be easily to read. i didn't flame you. i just try to talk to you. please don't use your anger toward me.
    That was not not me angry, rather vaguely annoyed.

    I might add pictures later, but I'd appreciate it if you at least TRIED to read the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by suzano View Post
    Rakiri>Kirin no way
    If you could offer any sort of reasoning for this belief I'd be happy to change my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by u wanna die View Post
    your saying kakashi > third raikage? even though it only pierce a little bit tiny degree as u say it.. haha.. lol bro... 1 tech cannot decide the fight ... keep that in mind!
    I'm comparing Raiton ninjutsu and nothing else. This isn't a versus thread. It's not in the versus thread section. I have only been comparing techniques, and Kakashi seems equal to or greater than the Third when it comes to countering Raiton.
     
         
    Last edited by Piratefish; 11-18-2012 at 06:56 AM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member eyesofthekyuubi44's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by November Nolove View Post
    because it's too damn long. summarize with manga picture, it would be easily to read. i didn't flame you. i just try to talk to you. please don't use your anger toward me.
    Well he's sorry that he took time away from your busy schedule to look at more than just the title of the thread...

    You have time to be on Narutobase. Why not actually READ the thread you're commenting on?


    I agree with some of it. Raikiri MAY be able to pierce the armor. And to you guys that misunderstand me... No. This does not mean Kakashi beats Sandaime Raikage.

    But as for Kakashi countering Kirin? Highly unlikely.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/391/9

    That's more than a lightning bolt. Yes, lightning can split apart trees and cause some damage to the land. Only problem is, Kakashi's Raikiri lacks the girth and width to overcome such a huge lightning dragon. Raikiri is attacked to his hand, so if this technique was directly above him (which I would assume it would be aimed to be, to get the best possible effect on killing him in a life-or-death battle), he'd still be affected by the area that Kirin covered that WASN'T his hand. The fact that Itachi had to use Susano'o to protect his whole body kind of goes along with this. Otherwise, he would have just jumped out of the way. I'd assume the chakra it takes to compose Susano'o would be slower than a high speed ninja like Itachi just moving out of the way of a lightning bolt.

    Kakashi has not shown any ability to redirect lightning. He's not Zuko from Avatar

    Oh and don't get me wrong. Just because Sasuke may use Kirin doesn't mean it's over. Especially since we can basically assume Kakashi can go to the other dimension now before the technique hits. It's logic.
     
         
    Last edited by eyesofthekyuubi44; 11-18-2012 at 07:03 AM.

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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    wish we got to experience more action with the third raikage's lightning techs.

    but yeah, i agree. raikiri is powerful, plus kakashi has speed. with both those aspects combined, kakashi's lightning techs would be hell to go up against.
     
         

  16. #16
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by eyesofthekyuubi44 View Post
    Well he's sorry that he took time away from your busy schedule to look at more than just the title of the thread...

    You have time to be on Narutobase. Why not actually READ the thread you're commenting on?


    I agree with some of it. Raikiri MAY be able to pierce the armor. And to you guys that misunderstand me... No. This does not mean Kakashi beats Sandaime Raikage.

    But as for Kakashi countering Kirin? Highly unlikely.

    http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/391/9

    That's more than a lightning bolt. Yes, lightning can split apart trees and cause some damage to the land. Only problem is, Kakashi's Raikiri lacks the girth and width to overcome such a huge lightning dragon. Raikiri is attacked to his hand, so if this technique was directly above him (which I would assume it would be aimed to be, to get the best possible effect on killing him in a life-or-death battle), he'd still be affected by the area that Kirin covered that WASN'T his hand. The fact that Itachi had to use Susano'o to protect his whole body kind of goes along with this. Otherwise, he would have just jumped out of the way. I'd assume the chakra it takes to compose Susano'o would be slower than a high speed ninja like Itachi just moving out of the way of a lightning bolt.

    Kakashi has not shown any ability to redirect lightning. He's not Zuko from Avatar

    Oh and don't get me wrong. Just because Sasuke may use Kirin doesn't mean it's over. Especially since we can basically assume Kakashi can go to the other dimension now before the technique hits. It's logic.
    Good points. Arguably it would be easier for Kakashi to counter Kirin if it was concentrated like an actual bolt...

    Maybe he could use something like a Rairyuudan? (Lightning Dragon Bomb) Or a more spread out form of the Raiden? Or a shield of many Lightning Clones?

    Whaaaat? Is Kakashi not Zuko? Is my life a LIEEEE?

    If anyone is Zuko it's Sasuke, though Zuko develops in the other direction and is more likeable, despite his voice.
     
         

  17. #17
    Logical Kakashi fanboy Takos's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Good thread.
     
         

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    Senior Member Exaar's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Hell stab >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raikiri quite easily.

    When raikiri cuts of all Bijuu tails in one Go then we will talk about them being equal.
     
         

  19. #19
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exaar View Post
    Hell stab >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raikiri quite easily.

    When raikiri cuts of all Bijuu tails in one Go then we will talk about them being equal.
    Remember when Kakashi uses Raiden (Lightning Chain) and cuts off an amount of V2 Jinchuuriki tails EFFORTLESSLY?

    Sure, they were inferior to Hachibi's actual tails, but there were more than 8 of them. There might have been more than 20.

    Raikiri is much stronger than Chidori. Fact.

    Chidori nearly pierced the Raikages Armor. Fact.

    It follows that Raikiri is AT LEAST on the same level as the Hell Stab.
     
         

  20. #20
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Please keep in mind that I'm comparing Raiton ninjutsu and nothing else. This is not a versus thread in the conventional sense.

    I'll use some previous posts, from the top raiton user debate thread:



    Raikiri as such seems to overpower (or at least pierce) even the highest shown tier of Raiton-based defense.

    So how does it compare with Kirin?



    Kirin (the lightning bolt[or dragon], though I've in effect proven that it's not any more powerful than one, I'll show you) versus the Raikiri:

    Raikiri has been stated to have cut a lightning bolt in half, and I HIGHLY doubt that Kirin is any stronger than your average lightning bolt. Proof(ish) (WITH SCIENCE): This is in response to a question comparing Kirin and regular lightning:



    This is in response to the same guy asking about whether lightning could destroy a mountain on the level of Kirin:



    So, if Kakashi can handle regular lightning he can handle Kirin. Raikiri thus seems stronger than the (otherwise) strongest (or possibly third strongest) offensive Raiton ninjutsu.

    Now, the Hell Stab (Third Raikage's single finger tech, it might not actually be called that) and the Raikiri both have never shown an upper limit to piercing power. The Raikiri seems equally likely to cut through Raikage's defense, so... other feats:

    Hell Stab can cut through Hachibi's tails with ease.

    Raikiri (well, Raiden, which is two of them connected by a chain) slices through V2 Jinchuuriki's tails like butter.


    Still seems pretty even. Anyway, Raikiri is on par with the othewise strongest Raiton offense shown in the manga, and CAN pierce the greatest Raiton defense.




    So yeah, Kakashi (and the Third Raikage) are both Supreme Anti-Raiton Specialists. You can't be truly familiar with countering something 'til you've mastered it, after all.

    Anyway, Kakashi invented all the techs shown while the is a chance (but a slim one) that someone else, perhaps an earlier Raikage, invented the Third's jutsu.

    Kakashi reigns supreme!


    SUMMARY:

    Raikiri > Raikage Lightning Armor

    Raikiri > Kirin

    Raikiri = Hell Stab

    Jutsu creation:

    Kakashi > Third Raikage. Not certain, but more probable than not.



    Kakashi > Awesome.
    No way Kakashi's touching the Third Raikage though. Third Raikage > Kakashi.
     
         

  21. #21
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    No way Kakashi's touching the Third Raikage though. Third Raikage > Kakashi.
    Again, it's not a versus thread, but a Raiton proficiency thread, and Kakashi (by hype, and feats) seems like a comparable user to the Third.

    If the Third fought Kakashi in the same way A fought Sasuke, he'd be dead. And they are father and son.
     
         

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    Senior Member Exaar's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Remember when Kakashi uses Raiden (Lightning Chain) and cuts off an amount of V2 Jinchuuriki tails EFFORTLESSLY?

    Sure, they were inferior to Hachibi's actual tails, but there were more than 8 of them. There might have been more than 20.

    Raikiri is much stronger than Chidori. Fact.

    Chidori nearly pierced the Raikages Armor. Fact.

    It follows that Raikiri is AT LEAST on the same level as the Hell Stab.
    As i said, When it can cut off all of a Fully sized Bijuu's tails then we will talk about it being = to hells stab.
     
         

  23. #23
    Senior Member Uchihajin Sasuke's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Both Kirin and Hell stab should be able to beat something like Kakashi's weak Raikiri
     
         

  24. #24
    Logical Kakashi fanboy Takos's Avatar
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    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchihajin Sasuke View Post
    Both Kirin and Hell stab should be able to beat something like Kakashi's weak Raikiri
    Raikiri is much stronger than any raiton in Sasuke's arsenal besides Kirin, which requires hours of Katon launching to perform, soo...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exaar View Post
    Hell stab >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raikiri quite easily.

    When raikiri cuts of all Bijuu tails in one Go then we will talk about them being equal.
    Actually, if you don't mind other body parts...
     
         
    Last edited by Takos; 11-18-2012 at 06:15 PM.

  25. #25
    Argumentative Bastard Piratefish's Avatar
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    ..aaaand we are back down to
    normal...
     

    Re: Kakashi: Greatest Anti-Raiton Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exaar View Post
    As i said, When it can cut off all of a Fully sized Bijuu's tails then we will talk about it being = to hells stab.
    Why wouldn't he be able to? Passing through V2 Jink tails without even slowing down seems to me like it could at least HARM any fully formed Bijuu. Do you disagree in that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchihajin Sasuke View Post
    Both Kirin and Hell stab should be able to beat something like Kakashi's weak Raikiri
    Could you... I don't know... EVEN TRY TO EXPLAIN WHY? I have listed reasonable reasons for my theories, the least you could do would be to take the time t SHOW YOU'VE EVEN READ IT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Takos View Post
    Raikiri is much stronger than any raiton in Sasuke's arsenal besides Kirin, which requires hours of Katon launching to perform, soo...



    Actually, if you don't mind other body parts...
    Actually, those ARE the tails. Bijuu tails can form handlike protrusions, which is why Naruto never has more than 9 of those.
     
         
    Last edited by Piratefish; 11-18-2012 at 06:31 PM.

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