View Poll Results: Who would win?

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  • Tobirama

    12 28.57%
  • Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    30 71.43%
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  1. #51
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Thanks for the save, although it was kinda late . Rep

    EDIT: It wont let me give you rep, it appears I already did
    Anytime dude
     
         

  2. #52
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Boskarta View Post
    Kakashi solo's with Kamui.

    LOL, no not going to be that guy.

    But yeah I think team 2 take this, but it certainly wouldn't be easy.

    We don't know a lot but based on what we know Tobirama has a s/t technique which from the way Minato talks about it is teleporting, probably somewhat similar to Obito's but not as fast and not going in to another dimension.
    So we can assume he can dodge fairly well.

    Tobirama could get away from Kamui with s/t. Kakashi's is nowhere near as fast as Obito's which Minato got away from, it's easy to tell when Kakashi is using it on you(see Deidara fight) you feel your body warping so Tobirama could teleport away from that.
    He also has Edo Tensei.
    Unknown who he can revive but presumably he would revive Uchiha clan members to fight against them rather than disgrace his own clan.
    His Suiton is apparently unmatched(say what you want about Kisame but he needs water or Samehada to be good)

    ^What? I assume you mean Kakashi? Water Wall isn't that good that's basically all he has, I doubt water is a good defense against water and Water Dragon has yet to be that good.

    Other than healing Tsunade wouldn't be that useful in this fight...


    I think team 2 would win mainly because Kakashi and Gai are just an epic duo and would overwhelm Tobirama, but it would be close.
    We have no idea what Tobirama's S/T is (I'm leaning towards some sort of dimensional pocket filled entirely with water) but assuming he can dodge Kamui with it? Seems unlikely, not least because Minato stated Kamui to be far superior to it. I'm aware it was Obito's Kamui, but they are more or less equal in potency, at least now that Kakashi has become more capable with it.

    Kakashi can use the Water Wall, Clone, Shark Bullet, Great Waterfall and Dragon Bullet. None of these are on the scale of Tobirama's rumored ability, but Great Waterfall is about as large as Tobirama's jutsu agains Hiruzen. Note that I'm not suggesting this battle is anywhere near his limits, but rather that Kakashi has shown an aptitude for Water Release and more importantly nullifying even Master Water users moves before. If there is a nearby water source Kakashi can nullify his techniques for a while, though Tobirama could easily outlast him in a pure ninjutsu battle.

    Kakashi is also capable with Earth Walls, which posses the elemental advantage against water. Tobirama has shown himself capable of carving through Hiruzen's mud wall, so it may not make much of a difference.

    Gai would eventually overwhelm him in taijutsu, and could end the match with a well-placed Hirudora.

    Tsunade could heal and replenish the Eternal Rivals in terms of chakra, or take to the field herself.
     
         

  3. #53
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Boskarta View Post
    Kakashi solo's with Kamui.

    LOL, no not going to be that guy.

    But yeah I think team 2 take this, but it certainly wouldn't be easy.

    We don't know a lot but based on what we know Tobirama has a s/t technique which from the way Minato talks about it is teleporting, probably somewhat similar to Obito's but not as fast and not going in to another dimension.
    So we can assume he can dodge fairly well.

    Tobirama could get away from Kamui with s/t. Kakashi's is nowhere near as fast as Obito's which Minato got away from, it's easy to tell when Kakashi is using it on you(see Deidara fight) you feel your body warping so Tobirama could teleport away from that.
    He also has Edo Tensei.
    Unknown who he can revive but presumably he would revive Uchiha clan members to fight against them rather than disgrace his own clan.
    His Suiton is apparently unmatched(say what you want about Kisame but he needs water or Samehada to be good)

    ^What? I assume you mean Kakashi? Water Wall isn't that good that's basically all he has, I doubt water is a good defense against water and Water Dragon has yet to be that good.

    Other than healing Tsunade wouldn't be that useful in this fight...


    I think team 2 would win mainly because Kakashi and Gai are just an epic duo and would overwhelm Tobirama, but it would be close.
    It took the Kinkaku Force to overwhelm Tobirama, and remember, there were 20 of them. They were certainly above Jonin level, although I wouldn't say that they would be allowed to be around Kakashi and Gai's level; remember once again, there were 20 of them. If Tobirama has only been shown to lose to that (and they don't show HOW he lost to these people, other than that he was used as bait and as a sacrifice essentially), I doubt that Kakashi and Gai can take him.

    Just my opinion.
     
         

  4. #54
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    It took the Kinkaku Force to overwhelm Tobirama, and remember, there were 20 of them. They were certainly above Jonin level, although I wouldn't say that they would be allowed to be around Kakashi and Gai's level; remember once again, there were 20 of them. If Tobirama has only been shown to lose to that (and they don't show HOW he lost to these people, other than that he was used as bait and as a sacrifice essentially), I doubt that Kakashi and Gai can take him.

    Just my opinion.
    Ah, but remember that Tobirama knew he would be overwhelmed, even with the help of both Hiruzen AND Danzou, as well as whoever was with them, don't recall exactly who. Hiruzen at that age was good enough to become Hokage immediately after Tobirama died, and Danzou was his rival (and probably closest rival candidate). If Tobirama was sure the Kinkaku Force would overwhelm even three Kage-level shinobi you can't use their numbers as a testament to Tobirama's strength.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Ah, but remember that Tobirama knew he would be overwhelmed, even with the help of both Hiruzen AND Danzou, as well as whoever was with them, don't recall exactly who. Hiruzen at that age was good enough to become Hokage immediately after Tobirama died, and Danzou was his rival (and probably closest rival candidate). If Tobirama was sure the Kinkaku Force would overwhelm even three Kage-level shinobi you can't use their numbers as a testament to Tobirama's strength.
    Not exactly. He wanted the younger generation of Konoha to live, which means he was sure that at LEAST one of them would die, but not necessarily himself. This also shows that he is 'an inheritor of the Will of Fire' by his selflessness; he is willing to die for any one of his students/comrades.
     
         

  6. #56
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Not exactly. He wanted the younger generation of Konoha to live, which means he was sure that at LEAST one of them would die, but not necessarily himself. This also shows that he is 'an inheritor of the Will of Fire' by his selflessness; he is willing to die for any one of his students/comrades.
    The Hokage is the most important member of the village, so he SHOULD be willing to sacrifice a ninja or two for the sake of his own existence. That's why Konoha has walls, and guards on those walls, and bodyguard ANBU. Sacrificing a potential Kage for the sake of an established and effective Kage makes logical sense.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    The Hokage is the most important member of the village, so he SHOULD be willing to sacrifice a ninja or two for the sake of his own existence. That's why Konoha has walls, and guards on those walls, and bodyguard ANBU. Sacrificing a potential Kage for the sake of an established and effective Kage makes logical sense.
    Why would he let several S-rank and Kage-level shinobi/kunoichi die for his own sake? That greatly contradicts the Will of Fire, which Hiruzen got from both Hashirama and Tobirama.
     
         

  8. #58
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Why would he let several S-rank and Kage-level shinobi/kunoichi die for his own sake? That greatly contradicts the Will of Fire, which Hiruzen got from both Hashirama and Tobirama.
    In Danzo's memories it is presented as a "one stays behind and stalls them" type situation. Tobirama'd be sacrificing a single low S-rank shinobi to save one high S-rank, as well as maintaining Konoha's image to a degree, as the death of a Kage always equals loss of prestige, unless people believe he "killed the Kyuubi" or some such. No only that but there'd be a fair amount of inner turmoil as the powerbase shifted (either drastically or not so much) and there's no guarantee the new Kage would be as good as he was. He'd deprive the Senju clan of a head, and Konoha as a whole of his extensive knowledge and experience. It's also possible he could resurrect the lost shinobi in some way to either say farewell or serve on even in death.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    In Danzo's memories it is presented as a "one stays behind and stalls them" type situation. Tobirama'd be sacrificing a single low S-rank shinobi to save one high S-rank, as well as maintaining Konoha's image to a degree, as the death of a Kage always equals loss of prestige, unless people believe he "killed the Kyuubi" or some such. No only that but there'd be a fair amount of inner turmoil as the powerbase shifted (either drastically or not so much) and there's no guarantee the new Kage would be as good as he was. He'd deprive the Senju clan of a head, and Konoha as a whole of his extensive knowledge and experience. It's also possible he could resurrect the lost shinobi in some way to either say farewell or serve on even in death.
    Stall? No, the person who does that will die. I doubt Tobirama would actually let that occur, once again him being an inheritor of the Will of Fire would cause him to assist the person who runs off to die. And if the Hokage goes, the whole squad goes. All of them together dying? No way. Hiruzen, Danzo or Kagami kill two while stalling for Tobirama, Tobirama uses Edo Tensei to revive Hashirama. Homura may die during this process. Both Hashirama and Homura are revived. Kinkaku Force flees or is defeated. Tobirama died only because plot told him to.

    Using your old comrades to serve the village?! What kind of sadistic bastard would do that?! (Don't even, there are many)
     
         

  10. #60
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Stall? No, the person who does that will die. I doubt Tobirama would actually let that occur, once again him being an inheritor of the Will of Fire would cause him to assist the person who runs off to die. And if the Hokage goes, the whole squad goes. All of them together dying? No way. Hiruzen, Danzo or Kagami kill two while stalling for Tobirama, Tobirama uses Edo Tensei to revive Hashirama. Homura may die during this process. Both Hashirama and Homura are revived. Kinkaku Force flees or is defeated. Tobirama died only because plot told him to.

    Using your old comrades to serve the village?! What kind of sadistic bastard would do that?! (Don't even, there are many)
    You can easily die stalling someone, particularly if that someone is a group of 20 skilled Kumo-nin all out for blood. I too doubt Tobirama would leave a comrade behind like that (as he didn't, canon) but there are arguments to be made for it being the more rational decision. If the Hokage orders them to go on without him they will (as they did, canon).

    So Hashirama would be used to serve the village? Well, the Hokage, and he probably would if he could.

    I do agree that Tobirama's death seemed a bit like a cop-out, as did Hashi's. They both would have benefited from some closure on their stories (why are villains the only ones who get that?) and it would have been an excellent opportunity to introduce some powerful potential edos.

    I meant the revival remark as a way of saying farewell for whoever felt they needed to, as well as allowing whoever it was to serve on if they so decided. If Tobirama had lived on, would Konoha have become a village of volunteer zombies?
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    You can easily die stalling someone, particularly if that someone is a group of 20 skilled Kumo-nin all out for blood. I too doubt Tobirama would leave a comrade behind like that (as he didn't, canon) but there are arguments to be made for it being the more rational decision. If the Hokage orders them to go on without him they will (as they did, canon).

    So Hashirama would be used to serve the village? Well, the Hokage, and he probably would if he could.

    I do agree that Tobirama's death seemed a bit like a cop-out, as did Hashi's. They both would have benefited from some closure on their stories (why are villains the only ones who get that?) and it would have been an excellent opportunity to introduce some powerful potential edos.

    I meant the revival remark as a way of saying farewell for whoever felt they needed to, as well as allowing whoever it was to serve on if they so decided. If Tobirama had lived on, would Konoha have become a village of volunteer zombies?
    Hiruzen won't die, he's a plot bunny so he should be able to take a few out on his own. Danzo is a semi-plot bunny, he may take out 1-2. Kagami is an elite Uchiha, by default he takes out 1. But I can see Hiruzen and Danzo being severely injured, and Kagami dying. If they die, they can be Edo'd.

    Hashirama will have his own free will at that point. He will be used to fight the Kinkaku Force, and if he decides to go back to the realm of the dead, then Tobirama would oblige.

    Volunteer zombies? Of course, as long as it keeps Kumo and Iwa in line.
     
         

  12. #62
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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    For Edo Tensei to work he has to either have prepared it beforehand or be able to kill one of his three opponents AND have enough time to complete the ritual. Tobirama's Edo Tensei is pretty weak besides, inferior to even Orochimaru's. I don't think Team 2 have any trouble even if he has prepared a (severely weakened) edo Hashirama.
    I'm sure Tobirama wouldn't have wasted his time inventing a technique and preparing edos unless they were really strong. My guess is he had Hashirama. The summoning is instantaneous and can actually work to block attacks. Tobirama's ET was 'incomplete,' not weak. That may be because he could only summon one edo; we don't know for sure. And with Tobirama and Hashirama working together I don't think one would be able to find a team that wouldn't have any trouble beating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    The obvious reasons of being both significantly weaker than Hashirama (though even he might have trouble with this combo) fighting three Kage-level shinobi where two have excellent teamwork, one of them able to match him in Suitonjutsu (or at least nearly) and far exceed him in S/T jutsu (according to Minato), one able to completely dominate him in taijutsu, and one able to destroy him in a single blow, dodge on a fantastic level, tank everything he's got anyway if the dodging doesn't work, AND heal the other two?

    The outcome DOES seem pretty obvious to me too, but we don't exactly seem to be on the same wavelength...
    Being weaker than Hashirama doesn't mean anything. Quite a lot of people are weaker than Hashirama; I could count on one hand those who are stronger. Tsunade is weak Kage level as she has no ranged techniques whatsoever, Kakashi is weak Kage level because his stamina is crap, and Gai is weak Kage level because he's not the brightest and can only use his strongest attack once. So none of them are actually good Kage material on their own, like Tobirama is. Tsunade and Gai do not have suiton; if you are suggesting that Kakashi's suiton can even get close to Tobirama's level I call fanboy. None of them have s/t, sorry; only Tobirama can teleport here. Saying that Gai can defeat Tobirama with one blow is not only trolling, it's incorrect. Tobirama being a senjutsu doubtless would have hoardes of water clones and if Gai attacks the wrong one with his one-shot, he's down for the rest of the battle. I've never seen anything from any of the three of them that suggests they are good at dodging. Tsunade only tanks and Kakashi's lightning clones get hit all the time. As for the tanking and healing, neither of those really work when one is being drowned.

    I wouldn't say the outcome is obvious either way but from the start I'd say Tobirama has a definite advantage.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricClover View Post
    I'm sure Tobirama wouldn't have wasted his time inventing a technique and preparing edos unless they were really strong. My guess is he had Hashirama. The summoning is instantaneous and can actually work to block attacks. Tobirama's ET was 'incomplete,' not weak. That may be because he could only summon one edo; we don't know for sure. And with Tobirama and Hashirama working together I don't think one would be able to find a team that wouldn't have any trouble beating them.
    Well. Hiruzen did. Old Hiruzen. Alone.

    Tobirama invented a technique and labeled it a kinjutsu either because he wanted nothing to do with it or because he wanted to be the only user of it. His early death prevented him from perfecting it - Orochimaru states that he has improved the technique, should we doubt him (he's sometimes an unreliable source) but Kabuto said he himself had mastered it beyond Oro and he was NOT lying.

    Oro's Edo's were pansies, and he's not exactly the type to use a WEAKER version of any technique he knows the information of.

    We can only assume that Tobirama left behind an unfinished tech, like Minato after him. Finished, here, is nearly self-evidently "stronger".

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricClover View Post
    Being weaker than Hashirama doesn't mean anything. Quite a lot of people are weaker than Hashirama; I could count on one hand those who are stronger. Tsunade is weak Kage level as she has no ranged techniques whatsoever, Kakashi is weak Kage level because his stamina is crap, and Gai is weak Kage level because he's not the brightest and can only use his strongest attack once. So none of them are actually good Kage material on their own, like Tobirama is. Tsunade and Gai do not have suiton; if you are suggesting that Kakashi's suiton can even get close to Tobirama's level I call fanboy. None of them have s/t, sorry; only Tobirama can teleport here. Saying that Gai can defeat Tobirama with one blow is not only trolling, it's incorrect. Tobirama being a senjutsu doubtless would have hoardes of water clones and if Gai attacks the wrong one with his one-shot, he's down for the rest of the battle. I've never seen anything from any of the three of them that suggests they are good at dodging. Tsunade only tanks and Kakashi's lightning clones get hit all the time. As for the tanking and healing, neither of those really work when one is being drowned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Kakashi can use the Water Wall, Clone, Shark Bullet, Great Waterfall and Dragon Bullet. None of these are on the scale of Tobirama's rumored ability, but Great Waterfall is about as large as Tobirama's jutsu agains Hiruzen. Note that I'm not suggesting this battle is anywhere near his limits, but rather that Kakashi has shown an aptitude for Water Release and more importantly nullifying even Master Water users moves before. If there is a nearby water source Kakashi can nullify his techniques for a while, though Tobirama could easily outlast him in a pure ninjutsu battle.
    This is reasonable, no? In any case Kakashi only needs to weaken Tobirama's jutsu enough that Team 2 survives, and Tobirama IS dealing with three opponents. If Gai get in close, the battle is pretty much won. If Kamui or Raikiri can be landed (the second one only needs a momentary mistake), the battle is won. If Tsunade can land a punch, (harder than any of the other things) the battle is won.

    Tobirama has never demonstrated teleportation or have teleportation described as one of his abilities, the ONLY source we have on that is Minato stating that Kamui (Obito version) was STRONGER than the Second's jutsu. Are you deciding that Kakashi doesn't have Kamui in this battle?

    If Gai lands Hirudora, the battle is won. I think you mean him being a Senju, not a Sage. Gai has in the war been fighting for quite a while, has used Hirudora once, and is still standing. Regardless of how capable he is at this point, he is not finished fighting. He also still has Death Gate. He can also, if Kakashi is capable of stalling Tobirama for even a short while, go off and have himself fixed up by Tsunade, enabling multiple Hirudoras (Hirudorae?)

    Gai is not the most intelligent of shinobi but you can't argue about his results in battle: He's not dumb. Hirudora also isn't an "Oh no I missed the real one out of twenty Water Clones" type jutsu, but rather a "Take out target and the City District he's located in" type jutsu: Even if it doesn't hit directly doesn't mean it won't do damage.

    Hordes of water clones only make them weaker, and water clones are pretty weak to begin with. Sasuke destroyed Zabuza's water clones without difficulty, and the difference between Tobirama and Team 2 (any of them) is not as significant as the difference between Wave Arc Sasuke and Zabuza. Water Clones are fodder, really, in this sort of battle. If all else fails Gai can use Morning Peacock.

    You really believe none of them can dodge for shit? Tsunade trained Sakura and focused MASSIVELY on dodging techniques, why do you think that is? Was it because a med-nin should keep out of harms way and Tsunade didn't ALWAYS have the Byakugou?

    Kakashi has a fair amount of speed and the Sharingan, as well as being able to warp attacks (and himself) away. He can get out of trouble. His lightning clones "getting hit all the time" is a strange thing to say, as I can only remember it being used once and enabled him to take out Pein's Asura Path, which is arguably the second strongest of the lot. Clone feints are a valid tactic sometimes.

    Gai just has MASSIVE speed. It's enough.

    Kakashi's stamina is better than it's ever been, and he has held his own even without extraordinary stamina against VERY powerful ninja in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricClover View Post
    I wouldn't say the outcome is obvious either way but from the start I'd say Tobirama has a definite advantage.
    You have three Mid Kage-Level shinobi versus one who is only possibly High Kage-Level. Two of the more numerous team posess abilities which WIN IT if they choose to die in the attempt. (Kakashi and Gai)

    Team 2 take it, though not easily.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Well. Hiruzen did. Old Hiruzen. Alone.

    Tobirama invented a technique and labeled it a kinjutsu either because he wanted nothing to do with it or because he wanted to be the only user of it. His early death prevented him from perfecting it - Orochimaru states that he has improved the technique, should we doubt him (he's sometimes an unreliable source) but Kabuto said he himself had mastered it beyond Oro and he was NOT lying.

    Oro's Edo's were pansies, and he's not exactly the type to use a WEAKER version of any technique he knows the information of.

    We can only assume that Tobirama left behind an unfinished tech, like Minato after him. Finished, here, is nearly self-evidently "stronger".





    This is reasonable, no? In any case Kakashi only needs to weaken Tobirama's jutsu enough that Team 2 survives, and Tobirama IS dealing with three opponents. If Gai get in close, the battle is pretty much won. If Kamui or Raikiri can be landed (the second one only needs a momentary mistake), the battle is won. If Tsunade can land a punch, (harder than any of the other things) the battle is won.

    Tobirama has never demonstrated teleportation or have teleportation described as one of his abilities, the ONLY source we have on that is Minato stating that Kamui (Obito version) was STRONGER than the Second's jutsu. Are you deciding that Kakashi doesn't have Kamui in this battle?

    If Gai lands Hirudora, the battle is won. I think you mean him being a Senju, not a Sage. Gai has in the war been fighting for quite a while, has used Hirudora once, and is still standing. Regardless of how capable he is at this point, he is not finished fighting. He also still has Death Gate. He can also, if Kakashi is capable of stalling Tobirama for even a short while, go off and have himself fixed up by Tsunade, enabling multiple Hirudoras (Hirudorae?)

    Gai is not the most intelligent of shinobi but you can't argue about his results in battle: He's not dumb. Hirudora also isn't an "Oh no I missed the real one out of twenty Water Clones" type jutsu, but rather a "Take out target and the City District he's located in" type jutsu: Even if it doesn't hit directly doesn't mean it won't do damage.

    Hordes of water clones only make them weaker, and water clones are pretty weak to begin with. Sasuke destroyed Zabuza's water clones without difficulty, and the difference between Tobirama and Team 2 (any of them) is not as significant as the difference between Wave Arc Sasuke and Zabuza. Water Clones are fodder, really, in this sort of battle. If all else fails Gai can use Morning Peacock.

    You really believe none of them can dodge for shit? Tsunade trained Sakura and focused MASSIVELY on dodging techniques, why do you think that is? Was it because a med-nin should keep out of harms way and Tsunade didn't ALWAYS have the Byakugou?

    Kakashi has a fair amount of speed and the Sharingan, as well as being able to warp attacks (and himself) away. He can get out of trouble. His lightning clones "getting hit all the time" is a strange thing to say, as I can only remember it being used once and enabled him to take out Pein's Asura Path, which is arguably the second strongest of the lot. Clone feints are a valid tactic sometimes.

    Gai just has MASSIVE speed. It's enough.

    Kakashi's stamina is better than it's ever been, and he has held his own even without extraordinary stamina against VERY powerful ninja in the past.



    You have three Mid Kage-Level shinobi versus one who is only possibly High Kage-Level. Two of the more numerous team posess abilities which WIN IT if they choose to die in the attempt. (Kakashi and Gai)

    Team 2 take it, though not easily.
    I agree with that Edo Tensei perfecting part. Tobirama was obsessed with perfecting himself, y'know.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    I agree with that Edo Tensei perfecting part. Tobirama was obsessed with perfecting himself, y'know.
    I've gathered.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    I've gathered.
    I wonder why Tobirama didn't take Uchiha eyes. I guess he wasn't as far gone as Orochimaru was.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    I wonder why Tobirama didn't take Uchiha eyes. I guess he wasn't as far gone as Orochimaru was.
    Oro had a MAD fetish for both the Sharingan and pale prettyboys. Few people ever were or will be as far gone as that, but there are indications towards it on any Naruto Forum.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Wow, Tsunades team Stomps.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Oro had a MAD fetish for both the Sharingan and pale prettyboys. Few people ever were or will be as far gone as that, but there are indications towards it on any Naruto Forum.
    *sigh* If only Nawaki had survived. I mean, Orochimaru was his sensei. Orochimaru would abuse that Senju DNA, teach Danzo how it's done. Then, since he would have more than enough chakra reserves for the sharingan at that point, any Uchiha fodder would do. He isn't a criminal of Konoha until like ... 20-25 years after this, so he'd be pretty beast as a Konoha shinobi (he'd have no reason to leave, he might have even become Yondaime Hokage in this scenario, with his dirty secrets known to only him). This of course is assuming if he finds a way to deactivate the sharingan.

    On another note, Tobirama must have definitely been tempted.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    *sigh* If only Nawaki had survived. I mean, Orochimaru was his sensei. Orochimaru would abuse that Senju DNA, teach Danzo how it's done. Then, since he would have more than enough chakra reserves for the sharingan at that point, any Uchiha fodder would do. He isn't a criminal of Konoha until like ... 20-25 years after this, so he'd be pretty beast as a Konoha shinobi (he'd have no reason to leave, he might have even become Yondaime Hokage in this scenario, with his dirty secrets known to only him). This of course is assuming if he finds a way to deactivate the sharingan.

    On another note, Tobirama must have definitely been tempted.
    Who can blame him, the Sharingan gives so much for so very LITTLE effort on the part of it's wielder.

    *sigh* If only Sakumo had married Tsunade. Kakashi would have been born with vast chakra potential and would train his control to ridiculous levels, both factors together resulting in the virtually guarateed creation of a Raiton: Rasenkamikaze or whatever it would be called even at a very young age.

    IF Obito "dies", Kakashi could have used the Sharingan both for a longer time and more easily, and might even awaken the Rinnegan in that eye (what? Madara did!).

    Sakumo would have got through his suicidal depression as whatever killed his wife would NOT have killed Tsunade, Tsunade wouldn't have left the village as Dan wouldn't have mattered and as a result hundreds or even thousands of Konoha citizens would have been saved directly by her efforts, not even mentioning the hospital and military policy reforms she is sure to have pushed through.

    Neither Kakashi nor Tsunade would have stagnated (as I believe they did) in the years they in canon suffered through massive depression due to about everyone they ever care about dying without any possible veangeance-target, leaving them both VASTLY more powerful than they were at the start of the series.

    Plus, we'd get to see Sakumo!

    PS: This seems like it could have potential as a thread. "What SHOULD have happened in the Naruto backstory?"
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Who can blame him, the Sharingan gives so much for so very LITTLE effort on the part of it's wielder.

    *sigh* If only Sakumo had married Tsunade. Kakashi would have been born with vast chakra potential and would train his control to ridiculous levels, both factors together resulting in the virtually guarateed creation of a Raiton: Rasenkamikaze or whatever it would be called even at a very young age.

    IF Obito "dies", Kakashi could have used the Sharingan both for a longer time and more easily, and might even awaken the Rinnegan in that eye (what? Madara did!).

    Sakumo would have got through his suicidal depression as whatever killed his wife would NOT have killed Tsunade, Tsunade wouldn't have left the village as Dan wouldn't have mattered and as a result hundreds or even thousands of Konoha citizens would have been saved directly by her efforts, not even mentioning the hospital and military policy reforms she is sure to have pushed through.

    Neither Kakashi nor Tsunade would have stagnated (as I believe they did) in the years they in canon suffered through massive depression due to about everyone they ever care about dying without any possible veangeance-target, leaving them both VASTLY more powerful than they were at the start of the series.

    Plus, we'd get to see Sakumo!

    PS: This seems like it could have potential as a thread. "What SHOULD have happened in the Naruto backstory?"
    *cough* Part 1 Kakashi *cough*

    *sigh* If only Dan didn't exist (he serves no real purpose).

    I doubt Obito would've died. OP Kakashi is the game-changer, especially since he isn't obsessed with the "ninja rules". By OP Kakashi I mean = personally trained by Sakumo and Tsunade, and the very pinnacle of chakra control; he barely wastes any unnecessary chakra on a jutsu. Not to mention his strength already, imagine him being trained by Tsunade (and being capable of using more than the First Gate, because Gai would go supreme-tryhard if Kakashi was this OP). I also doubt Orochimaru would've taken the risk of Sakumo and Tsunade just to get to Kakashi.

    Sakumo was depressed by the mission, but not his wife's death. Sakumo = Yondaime (before Minato even has the chance). This means both Minato and Kushina are alive.

    Eh, Kakashi would already be Kage-level at Part 1, without Kamui. Tsunade would've never lost her touch, so she would've never had to get back up there, and with Sakumo and Kakashi's prowess as inspiration, she'd probably be much more than what she was in the original.

    With Minato and Kushina still alive, I can really see Naruto, Tenten and Lee on a team together (Naruto graduates a year early; I won't go so far as put him 2 years early) under Gai. And Naruto being a much better version of both Lee and Gai, at that (if Lee can take five gates at age 14 through hard work while having no great family, I'm sure that Naruto with Uzumaki stamina can do it at 11-12, without dying, however). Naruto would only look normal in dark black tights (not green like Lee, or orange like he wants to be). Not to mention if Minato feels like teaching him the pre-cursor of FTG or Kushina teaches him the basics of her chakra chains.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    *cough* Part 1 Kakashi *cough*

    *sigh* If only Dan didn't exist (he serves no real purpose).

    I doubt Obito would've died. OP Kakashi is the game-changer, especially since he isn't obsessed with the "ninja rules". By OP Kakashi I mean = personally trained by Sakumo and Tsunade, and the very pinnacle of chakra control; he barely wastes any unnecessary chakra on a jutsu. Not to mention his strength already, imagine him being trained by Tsunade (and being capable of using more than the First Gate, because Gai would go supreme-tryhard if Kakashi was this OP). I also doubt Orochimaru would've taken the risk of Sakumo and Tsunade just to get to Kakashi.

    Sakumo was depressed by the mission, but not his wife's death. Sakumo = Yondaime (before Minato even has the chance). This means both Minato and Kushina are alive.

    Eh, Kakashi would already be Kage-level at Part 1, without Kamui. Tsunade would've never lost her touch, so she would've never had to get back up there, and with Sakumo and Kakashi's prowess as inspiration, she'd probably be much more than what she was in the original.

    With Minato and Kushina still alive, I can really see Naruto, Tenten and Lee on a team together (Naruto graduates a year early; I won't go so far as put him 2 years early) under Gai. And Naruto being a much better version of both Lee and Gai, at that (if Lee can take five gates at age 14 through hard work while having no great family, I'm sure that Naruto with Uzumaki stamina can do it at 11-12, without dying, however). Naruto would only look normal in dark black tights (not green like Lee, or orange like he wants to be). Not to mention if Minato feels like teaching him the pre-cursor of FTG or Kushina teaches him the basics of her chakra chains.
    Sakumo was probably not HAPPY at his wife's death, and having no-one to talk to about his depression (save his seven-year-old son) would have been a crucial factor in allowing it to progress as far as it did. Tsunade, who would have supported him in his decision, would have made all the difference in the world. I have some personal experience on the subject.

    It's funny how increasing Kakashi's ability ALWAYS results in an increase of Gai's.

    Kakashi would probably specialized in taijutsu, as he beat young Gai in the chuunin exams purely in this, I believe, and Senju DNA helps,
    Lightning Techniques as he's already arguably the best with these in the manga, and more chakra means FAR more opportunities to experiment,
    Fuuinjutsu (he has some knowledge but it seems like he hasn't progressed in it since Minato's death) and
    Medical Jutsu, allowing him to heal the damage the Gates do to him, which while drastically shortening his lifespan, SHOULD allow him to STAY in the Death Gate and survive. One of the movie villains does it and it's a very interesting concept.
    He also has the opportunity to learn Sage Mode, as he now has great amounts of chakra, and I imagine Sakumo being the holder of something like the Wolf Contract, which Kakashi never recieved due to his death. Dogs really are the type of summon you would give to a seven-year-old, and maybe even use to help raise him.

    Imagine Hatake-Senju Kakashi, with Wolf Boss summon at his side and some Elder Wolves lurking in the background, Wolf Sage Eight Gate Lightning Armor Mode, armed with Raikiri variations and every possible type of Raisengan, as well as whatever else he could have invented in all his ample time. Also, he has FTG and whatever Minato would have cooked up in the time since his death, but why would he even need it?

    Feel free to invent a character to challenge this guy.

    EDIT: Well, Dan serves the purpose of preventing main characters from having any kind of romantic interaction, which seems like one of Kishi's main goals.
     
         
    Last edited by Piratefish; 11-19-2012 at 01:23 AM.

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    Sakumo was probably not HAPPY at his wife's death, and having no-one to talk to about his depression (save his seven-year-old son) would have been a crucial factor in allowing it to progress as far as it did. Tsunade, who would have supported him in his decision, would have made all the difference in the world. I have some personal experience on the subject.

    It's funny how increasing Kakashi's ability ALWAYS results in an increase of Gai's.

    Kakashi would probably specialized in taijutsu, as he beat young Gai in the chuunin exams purely in this, I believe, and Senju DNA helps,
    Lightning Techniques as he's already arguably the best with these in the manga, and more chakra means FAR more opportunities to experiment,
    Fuuinjutsu (he has some knowledge but it seems like he hasn't progressed in it since Minato's death) and
    Medical Jutsu, allowing him to heal the damage the Gates do to him, which while drastically shortening his lifespan, SHOULD allow him to STAY in the Death Gate and survive. One of the movie villains does it and it's a very interesting concept.
    He also has the opportunity to learn Sage Mode, as he now has great amounts of chakra, and I imagine Sakumo being the holder of something like the Wolf Contract, which Kakashi never recieved due to his death. Dogs really are the type of summon you would give to a seven-year-old, and maybe even use to help raise him.

    Imagine Hatake-Senju Kakashi, with Wolf Boss summon at his side and some Elder Wolves lurking in the background, Wolf Sage Eight Gate Lightning Armor Mode, armed with Raikiri variations and every possible type of Raisengan, as well as whatever else he could have invented in all his ample time. Also, he has FTG and whatever Minato would have cooked up in the time since his death, but why would he even need it?

    Feel free to invent a character to challenge this guy.

    EDIT: Well, Dan serves the purpose of preventing main characters from having any kind of romantic interaction, which seems like one of Kishi's main goals.
    Ehh, Kakashi was 6.

    Well they are Eternal Rivals.

    On lightning techniques, the only way I see him being the best in this scenario is by him working as a spy observing the Raikage's ability. With his ingenuity, he'd certainly be able to mimic and improve upon the Lightning Release Armor.
    Fuuinjutsu just doesn't fit Kakashi IMO.
    Medical Ninjutsu, I completely agree. He doesn't even need to live for too long, either. I doubt Hashirama made it to 40.

    Someone to challenge him? Sure.

    Hiruzen, from a different scenario. Mito, realizing that Hashirama is wrong in thinking that dividing the Tailed Beasts evenly = peace, convinces him to let him seal one more biju into a shinobi of Konoha. Tobirama suggests Hiruzen, and Hashirama agrees because Hiruzen is like the son Tobirama never had. Mito, with hesitation, agrees with the brothers, and seals the Seven-Tails into Hiruzen. At first, the Seven-Tails causes Hiruzen many problems, constantly almost killing him in his dreamworld (like Naruto). After Hashirama remembers how Madara had the Nine-Tails under his control, he suggests that Hiruzen kill a small-time Uchiha who has defected from the village, and take his sharingan. Hiruzen's condition worsens, so Tobirama does the deed himself and returns with the eyes. Although Mito is initially against transplanting his eyes, Tobirama explains that it's for the greater good of Konoha and that the Uchiha is already dead.

    After the transplant is complete, Hiruzen wakes up, screaming. He then explains that the Seven-Tails injured him in his dreamworld. Tobirama then explains to him that now since he has the sharingan, he can make the Seven-Tails work for him. Wanting payback like any child would, the next day while he is asleep and the Seven-Tails attempts to attack him again, he uses his sharingan to take control of the Seven-Tails. When he wakes up, he finds out that he can grow wings out of his back at his own will, in addition to a great speed and power boost. After telling Tobirama about this, Tobirama becomes obsessed with not perfecting himself, but perfecting Hiruzen. He implants his DNA into Hiruzen while he is asleep, and tells him to practice suiton the next day. Hiruzen does not believe he can do one because it's not his affinity but eventually tries it. He shows mastery over suiton even more incredible than Tobirama's, due to his (much) larger amount of chakra and Tobirama's cells in the first place. At age 30, after both Tobirama and Hashirama are deceased, Enma realizes that he has been of no use to Hiruzen because Hiruzen trolls everyone with katon and suiton jutsu from the sky. Enma fuses with Hiruzen (actually going into his body, permanently) and Hiruzen is the Monkey Sage.

    Basically, Hiruzen can fly around spamming high-end Suiton jutsu and with Senju DNA + Seven-Tails' chakra, he's a chakra machine. His sharingan is so that he doesn't have to spend years becoming friends with the Seven-Tails, or learning all of those jutsu through books. Hiruzen being the Monkey Sage is because Enma wouldn't have any purpose as a summon and making Hiruzen even more OP would be fun.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnipotent View Post
    Ehh, Kakashi was 6.

    Well they are Eternal Rivals.

    On lightning techniques, the only way I see him being the best in this scenario is by him working as a spy observing the Raikage's ability. With his ingenuity, he'd certainly be able to mimic and improve upon the Lightning Release Armor.
    Fuuinjutsu just doesn't fit Kakashi IMO.
    Medical Ninjutsu, I completely agree. He doesn't even need to live for too long, either. I doubt Hashirama made it to 40.

    Someone to challenge him? Sure.

    Hiruzen, from a different scenario. Mito, realizing that Hashirama is wrong in thinking that dividing the Tailed Beasts evenly = peace, convinces him to let him seal one more biju into a shinobi of Konoha. Tobirama suggests Hiruzen, and Hashirama agrees because Hiruzen is like the son Tobirama never had. Mito, with hesitation, agrees with the brothers, and seals the Seven-Tails into Hiruzen. At first, the Seven-Tails causes Hiruzen many problems, constantly almost killing him in his dreamworld (like Naruto). After Hashirama remembers how Madara had the Nine-Tails under his control, he suggests that Hiruzen kill a small-time Uchiha who has defected from the village, and take his sharingan. Hiruzen's condition worsens, so Tobirama does the deed himself and returns with the eyes. Although Mito is initially against transplanting his eyes, Tobirama explains that it's for the greater good of Konoha and that the Uchiha is already dead.

    After the transplant is complete, Hiruzen wakes up, screaming. He then explains that the Seven-Tails injured him in his dreamworld. Tobirama then explains to him that now since he has the sharingan, he can make the Seven-Tails work for him. Wanting payback like any child would, the next day while he is asleep and the Seven-Tails attempts to attack him again, he uses his sharingan to take control of the Seven-Tails. When he wakes up, he finds out that he can grow wings out of his back at his own will, in addition to a great speed and power boost. After telling Tobirama about this, Tobirama becomes obsessed with not perfecting himself, but perfecting Hiruzen. He implants his DNA into Hiruzen while he is asleep, and tells him to practice suiton the next day. Hiruzen does not believe he can do one because it's not his affinity but eventually tries it. He shows mastery over suiton even more incredible than Tobirama's, due to his (much) larger amount of chakra and Tobirama's cells in the first place. At age 30, after both Tobirama and Hashirama are deceased, Enma realizes that he has been of no use to Hiruzen because Hiruzen trolls everyone with katon and suiton jutsu from the sky. Enma fuses with Hiruzen (actually going into his body, permanently) and Hiruzen is the Monkey Sage.

    Basically, Hiruzen can fly around spamming high-end Suiton jutsu and with Senju DNA + Seven-Tails' chakra, he's a chakra machine. His sharingan is so that he doesn't have to spend years becoming friends with the Seven-Tails, or learning all of those jutsu through books. Hiruzen being the Monkey Sage is because Enma wouldn't have any purpose as a summon and making Hiruzen even more OP would be fun.
    BUT can he turn into a completely indestructible bo-staff with size-and-mass manipulation abilities as well as all his ninjutsu talent preserved (Fire, Water, Earth mastery and control) and that gives the ability of flight to its wielder? There's a Sharingan at either end, so he's a natural sensor and can to a degree counter opponents on his own without turning back to normal.

    If this is possible, we may have a PERFECT (and impossibly unlikely) COMBO!

    We need some villains for these guys as well.

    EDIT: I feel we may have strayed some distance from the original topic.
     
         

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    Re: Tobirama Senju vs Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai

    Quote Originally Posted by Piratefish View Post
    BUT can he turn into a completely indestructible bo-staff with size-and-mass manipulation abilities as well as all his ninjutsu talent preserved (Fire, Water, Earth mastery and control) and that gives the ability of flight to its wielder? There's a Sharingan at either end, so he's a natural sensor and can to a degree counter opponents on his own without turning back to normal.

    If this is possible, we may have a PERFECT (and impossibly unlikely) COMBO!

    We need some villains for these guys as well.

    EDIT: I feel we may have strayed some distance from the original topic.
    I really don't want to see OP Kakashi carrying the Sandaime Hokage as a Bo-staff, especially when this staff should have a sharingan eye and retractable wings.

    Villain? Edo Madara still solos with them Perfect Susanoo clones.
    But possible ones would be: Three-Tails Jinchuuriki Tobirama Senju (coral armor, stronger, faster, even more powerful suiton) and Eight-Tails Jinchuuriki Hashirama (stronger/faster + tentacles that can grab and reach; basically the same thing as his Mokuton but with assistance)

    Tobirama, along with Kakashi are still included, and this is still a 'versus', so we're close enough.
     
         

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