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  1. #151
    Member edo x edo's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Hey sorry for the late answer...

    There's a bit of a problem with kakuzu having 5 hearts and several elements, but remember, only one heart has an element superior to water, while the rest is either the same or weaker than water.
    Knowing this, kisame can make muliple clones, with which he can split up and attack several hearts at the same time when kakuzu splits. His chakra level should be enough for this to be a possible plan.
    His water sharks should be able to take down at least fire, when trapped in water dome. If this isn't enough, kisame's chakra absorbing shark(used against guy) would be superior to all attacks exept earth armor + taijutsu, which he would most likely beat with kenjutsu and taijutsu. The only jutsu in kakuzu arsenal that could nullify kisame's water, is most likely fire/wind merging, but that would be wulnerable to more than one attack at the time, something kisame would probably quickly realise and focus on getting rid of it.

    The best chance for kakuzu would be to use a decoy, ex one or two of his hearts that could be dangerous, and then hit him from the back with a quick strike of lightning or earth-taijutsu. the sheer scale of kisame's attacks are just too big i think, so he needs to use stealth to get in a blow, and even if he succeeds, kisames regeneration is extremely fast so one blow most likely isn't enough.
     
         

  2. #152
    Negative Knight's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by edo x edo View Post
    Hey sorry for the late answer...

    There's a bit of a problem with kakuzu having 5 hearts and several elements, but remember, only one heart has an element superior to water, while the rest is either the same or weaker than water.
    Knowing this, kisame can make muliple clones, with which he can split up and attack several hearts at the same time when kakuzu splits. His chakra level should be enough for this to be a possible plan.
    His water sharks should be able to take down at least fire, when trapped in water dome. If this isn't enough, kisame's chakra absorbing shark(used against guy) would be superior to all attacks exept earth armor + taijutsu, which he would most likely beat with kenjutsu and taijutsu. The only jutsu in kakuzu arsenal that could nullify kisame's water, is most likely fire/wind merging, but that would be wulnerable to more than one attack at the time, something kisame would probably quickly realise and focus on getting rid of it.

    The best chance for kakuzu would be to use a decoy, ex one or two of his hearts that could be dangerous, and then hit him from the back with a quick strike of lightning or earth-taijutsu. the sheer scale of kisame's attacks are just too big i think, so he needs to use stealth to get in a blow, and even if he succeeds, kisames regeneration is extremely fast so one blow most likely isn't enough.
    Some interesting tactics you raise but Kakuzu has shown to deal with clones very efficiently even without his masks, with them he would be slightly overkill with as little as one blast from his Fuuton (Wind) Mask destroying each and every one of them.

    Kakuzu dealing with multiple clones from Naruto with relative Ease


    Kakuzu's masks are also capable of flight so it becomes a very, very one sided fight between Kisame's clones vs Kakuzu Masks. They bombard the grounded clones with elemental attacks (baring in mind they don't have their own Samehadas) and are subsequnetly destroyed.

    The Flight ability also renders a large portion of their arsenal useless.

    However i am curious to here your counters to the points i raised in this post - My Recently Raised Points
     
         

  3. #153
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    @Negative Knight.

    Your initial points are agreeable, but your later ones are not.

    I agree on Kakuzu’s intellect; however it did not provide him with a counter to a simple feint. Regardless of how intelligent one is combat wise, (unless you’re Itachi) you are prone to possible mistakes. With Kakuzu, this was shown. Furthermore; Samehada showed no problem absorbing a katon based technique and the magnitude was not severely underwhelming. The point of displaying Itachi’s katon technique is too negate the argument that Samehada cannot absorb katon based abilities, not the scope, which does not subtract from its absorbent principals whatsoever — a technique’s dimensions entail its capacity, and as long as it does not exceed Samehada’s capacity it can be absorbed.

    Kisame is not Kakashi, Ino, or Choji. The threads are chakra based, so an eclipse of these threads would harm only Kakuzu, for as long as Samehada is presented — Kisame can subtract his chakra capacity weakening him; thus making the battle becomes a game of longevity. Furthermore; Kakuzu’s threads are not swifter than an upgraded Bee, which Kisame was able to keep up rather fairly (not without problem). Under the impression that you read it correctly; the rest of your argument can be countered in my initial post.
     
         

  4. #154
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by EjBlack View Post
    I agree, they both have knowledge but not on their personal techs. Even Kisame wanted to know how the Zombie Duo died http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/353/11.
    Where have I act/stated that Kakuzu has full knowledge?
    ....you supported me when you posted those scans, Choji's expanded hand can one shot masks with ease. You haven't pointed out to me how they're supposed to actually revive Kakuzu, and you're heavily implying Kisame will just sit on his ass and watch the masks revive Kakuzu. Well guess what? When he does that, Kisame kills Kakuzu over and over again with full stamina, how will Kakuzu defend? He can't, like I said before: "And what happens when Kisame does destroy masks? Kakuzu doesn't get to keep every single one of his elemental jutsu indefinitely as long as he has 1 heart."

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Not at all.

    1) I've countered Suiton Daikodan with Kakuzu being hit after fuelling the jutsu, dying and then allowing his hearts to reintergrate into his body. This doesn't however come without any damage to Kisame who leaves himself open to be hit directly by all the other hearts
    That's not a counter, in that case one of his hearts is down, and Kisame is that much closer to victory. How will the masks come close to surviving Daikodan if even Kakuzu can't? The attack is extremely massive I have trouble believing the masks will somehow come out of daikodan perfectly fine and be able to save Kakuzu.

    Especially when Kakuzu has no knowledge and will use his masks to fuel Daikodan with its jutsu. What about in your "V2" form that you talk about so much? He had both of his masks inside him already, Daikodan would destroy him and wipe out multiple hearts like FRS did.

    And how does Daikodan leave Kisame open? Kakuzu's quite "Open" when his weak masks are flying around and Kakuzu's lying dead surrounded by Kisame's territory(a lake) with Kisame at full chakra and Kakuzu and his masks constantly being drained over time.
    2) I've countered the Water Dome. In summary Kakuzu and his masks travel in different directions, 4 of them escape and if Kakuzu is the target then Kisame will go for him. After Kisame dispels the Water Dome, the reintegrate back into his body to revive him but not before.
    Why would he dispel the water dome if 4 masks are going in different directions? I mean really. You need to think rationally here, what happens after that? It's become apparent to me you're avoiding the main points of answering the arguments you have no counter to.

    If Kisame kills Kakuzu, he's down 1 less jutsu and 4 weak masks have to get past Kisame and revive him. Which is all ridiculous in and of itself but what happens if all that does happen and Kakuzu gets revived safely? How does he hope to actually hurt or kill Kisame off when he has water dome, thousand sof sharks and daikodan with nigh infinite chakra?

    Where's your support for Kakuzu's chakra? When Kisame drains him, he doesn't get a 2nd full chakra count each time a heart revives him. In case you didn't know, there aren't 5 Kakuzu, once his chakra is gone it's gone. If you don't think I'm right then prove me wrong and support his chakra count.

    Now for the love of god, counter my points :rofl:
    Like what? Like I said muuuultiple times you can say "you never countered me i totally owned all your points" as much as you want but I need specifics, I have no idea what you're talking about. But if countering daikodan and water dome was a thing to get out of the way first you got a long way to go before I'm countering Kakuzu's (absorbed) jutsu.
     
         

  5. #155
    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    "you supported me when you posted those scans, Choji's expanded hand can one shot masks with ease." LOL, RE-READ IT!

    "you haven't pointed out to me how they're supposed to actually revive Kakuzu, and you're heavily implying Kisame will just sit on his ass and watch the masks revive Kakuzu." I did not imply that Kisame will just stand there I am simply saying that No knowledge of his tech would mean he is ready to kill destroy his monsters. Little does he know that their Focus to to revive Kakuzu and not fight witout Kakuzu. The scan I post was to show that they are capable.

    "When he does that, Kisame kills Kakuzu over and over again with full stamina" Because Kisame has full knowledge and Kakuzu won't analzye and make the same mistake to get "owned" right.. Please stop underestimating Akasuki members, even Kisimoto wouldn't show that it is possible to one hit KO the Akasuki.

    "That's not a counter, in that case one of his hearts is down, " YES YES YES we already concluded that ONE HEART IS DOWNb

    "How will the masks come close to surviving Daikodan if even Kakuzu can't?" Because the feat-less Sabu can:



    "The attack is extremely massive I have trouble believing the masks will somehow come out of daikodan perfectly fine and be able to save Kakuzu." They won't be perfect, they will have some chakra taken off but they will still survive just like Sabu.

    "specially when Kakuzu has no knowledge and will use his masks to fuel Daikodan with its jutsu." Kakuzu has intellect feat. If he is inside the Dome and see he Chakra getting drain and will not TRY to give me chakra.

    "Daikodan would destroy him and wipe out multiple hearts like FRS did." Prove it. Water Dome only acts like water prison that drains chakra, can't believe you compared two different jutsus together....

    "weak masks are flying around" LOL, oh God...

    "surrounded by Kisame's territory(a lake) with Kisame" Prove it. While I disprove it.


    Nope, no territory.

    "Why would he dispel the water dome if 4 masks are going in different directions? I mean really. You need to think rationally here, what happens after that? "
    And you are thinking rational? What is Kisame going to do? Chase after the other mask that are already out? Do you think that is Rational for Kisame to do that?

    The rest I'm am not going waste my time explaining you are clearly throwing around the word "weak" which is pretty to me what you think of Kakuzu in general.
     
         

  6. #156
    Senior Member EjBlack's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    "Where's your support for Kakuzu's chakra? " [b] One more point to back up Kakuzu's chakra and their mask. Scans show how much chakra he is pouring out to do elemental bazooka's without him complain about conserving chakra.






     
         

  7. #157
    Omnislash The Humble Omnislash X SageMode's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Invsblphntm View Post
    Kisame is basically Preta Path, and Kakuzu is basically a ton of jutsu spam( its alot more than jutsu spam..you know like his threads and his intellect feats?), so if I'm doing this right Kakuzu can't win this one.( ...BOTH of these ninjas have the capabilities to defeat the other..)
    :sy:No. kisame is not a preta path.....thats one reason why this argument is still going on because ppl think thats what his sword is capable of....and its not even close to that level....preta path absorbs NINJUTSU & CHAKRA(S) ALL-TOGETHER...where as kisames sword SPECIFICALLY EATS CHAKRA....it cannot eat up a massive/High ranked jutsu.....the manga scan of the sword trying to eat itachis fireball exposed this rather easily.....(which is a c/d ranked jutsu)

    The reason why is because the sword only was able to eat an area of the jutsu that wouldve came in direct contact with bee...the rest of the flames were still intact and right behind him....so then,does preta path leave anything behind when it sucks in ninjutsu/ chakra?
    No, it absorbs ALL of it in a rather fast pace...

    kisames sword is meant to consume chakra directly from its opponent....not their ninjutsu attack from what ive seen....preta path SPECIFICALY absorbs chakra & Ninjutsus....i hope this helps anyone just seeing this thread! Lemme know if i missed any important facts in this comparison!!
     
         

  8. #158
    Member juankimari's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    I think Kisame is kind of overrated, a huge part of his power is just because of Samehada.It weakens his opponents to the point he is able to beat them.With that sword he would most likely be able to beat Kakuzu BUT without that weapon he would be doomed.

    Don´t get me wrong Kisame is strong even without that sword but nowhere near as strong as people think he is, without it there is no way in hell he could beaten even the weakest tailed beast let alone one of the really strong ones.
     
         

  9. #159
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Wow really detailed thread, I'll have to come back to this one and read it more closely later.
     
         

  10. #160
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    great thread but I solute kisame
     
         

  11. #161
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    I love how people think that one character is going to stand around and take an attack. If Kisame saw a huge fire technique coming, he isn't just going to stand and think "Oh no, Samehada won't be able to absorb all of this", he's gonna get out of the way! Kisame has stamina plenty to outlast Kakuzu. Besides, his fire jutsu can easily be countered by his water jutsu. Plus, if Kisame fires Giant Shark Bullet successfully for the hearts, Kakuzu will be weakened considerably. It'd be extremely close fight but nearly everything Kakuzu does, from his Iron Fist to his normal jutsu is chakra based...
     
         
    Last edited by BlacLord; 10-29-2012 at 05:44 PM.

  12. #162
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Negative Knight! First of all Awesome thread! Very quality work. Keep it up man. I've been afk for a while, hopefully I can get back into the debating scene :P

    Honestly, so many other people have commented on the fight that I don't want to be redundant on what others have said/argued about, but if you would still want me to go in depth and debate certain parts I would be happy to do so :D .

    I guess I'll just say this, I think that Kakuzu wins this battle. Mainly because Kisame would have to kill him 5 times. I mean, I think that ANY non-God or close to tier enemy would have trouble 1v1 with Kakuzu. For the most part, Kakuzu's attacks are pretty one dimensional, compared to Kisame's versatility. On top of that the stamina/chakra between them means that Kisame could normally outlast anyone, and I think that he could go toe to toe with Kakuzu for a while, but the fact that he would have to find a way to kill him 5 times is just too much.
     
         

  13. #163
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by 6 paths View Post
    Killer B and Naruto vs Edo Itachi and Nagato... it had trouble absorbing it but it did it nonetheless
    ok... so if it can, still not sure as it looked like a block to me, but even if it can, then i highly doubt its blocking all the high lvl chakra jutsu's coming from kakuzu...
     
         

  14. #164
    IMMORTAL THREAD COG DeadManWonderLand's Avatar
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Kakuzu of the Earth Grudge Fear vs Kisame of the Bloody Mist


    After a lengthy retirement from my VS Threads, I’ve finally decided to get back to what I do best and start making the threads you all know and love but with a much better layout, style and efficiency.

    This is a thread highlighting the strength of Kakuzu, his overlooked abilities and essentially it has no bias but a purpose, and is therefore showing why either side could win. Simply you just ignore the title as I wrote it that way for people to recognize it was one of my threads, however the thread will concentrate more on the underdog in this battle to explain why this is a fair match up.

    The Earth Grudge Monster


    Kakuzu's Abilities


    Large Scale Wind Release Techniques
    Kakuzu is able to use four of the five basic elements which are wind, fire, lightning and earth. His Wind Release was on such a scale that he was able to devastate the entireity of the terrain with as little as one blast. Furthermore it gives him the advantage over lightning release users whilst also being able to strengthen his powerful fire release techniques which required Naruto's Wind Release Rasengan infused with Yamato's Water Release to extinguish it.



    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: Wind's natural neutrality with Water means this could be used as a method to cancel out large waves of water summoned by Kisame by dissipating the force so much they lose all momentum and collapse.



    Pseudo Immortality
    Kakuzu uses the kinjutsu to integrate other people's hearts into his own body after killing his opponents. His body allows him to include up to 4 extra hearts into his own body meaning he has a overall number of 5. In order to kill Kakuzu all 5 hearts must stopping beating which makes him in a way immortal. The hearts can also take on bodies of their own in the shape of black creatures which each can utilize the element their mask has.

    Utilizing his natural advantage of being able to have a physical presence in 5 places at once means he could be engaging Kisame directly while attacking from Kisame's blind spots with his masks to strike lethal hits or even split his attention enough to separate Kisame from his sword. The masks natural ability of flight grant them virtual immunity to his entire arsenal and also hinder Kisame in the sense that he would have to remain mobile to prevent creating openings for Kakuzu's masks to strike.




    Large Scale Fire Release Techniques
    Kakuzu is also able to Fire Release on an even higher scale than his Wind Release when he infuses both of them to create a mass of flames requiring both powerful wind and water release techniques. This also gives him the elemental advantage against water release users.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: Samehada has shown itself to struggle with absorbing fire based Ninjutsu due to its intense heats, even cringing when attempting to absorb Itachi's Fire ball which pales in comparison to the scale of Kakuzu's combined Wind and Fire Release Ninjutsu. Due to Samehada's displayed chakra absorption limit, and its difficultly to handle even lower ranked Katon Ninjtsu, it could be argued that samehada wouldn't abosrb the attack completely, allowing some of it to land on both Kisame and Samehada.

    Kakuzu's Wind and Fire Masking Merging into one body


    Earth Release: Iron Skin Hardening (Earth Spear)
    Kakuzu flows chakra through all parts of their body causing him to become darker in colour which in turn increases his defensive power to its utmost limits by making the skin as hard as diamond. Furthermore, the destructive power of physical attacks is increased, making this a great all-purpose technique.

    Kakuzu's Doton Domu Armour Elemental Strengths and Weaknesses

    Immunity to Wind Techniques due them gusts of wind unable to cut through diamond, due to it being the hardest substance on the planet.

    Immunity to Water Techniques, his body manages to dissipate the force of it, rendering it effectively useless, not to mention the natural elemental advantage earth has over water.

    Resistant to Fire Techniques, his body is hardened to the extent of diamond and he was shown to be hit with a explosive kunai directly without being hurt in anyway, his body is much more resistant to damage than most other shinobi.

    Resistant to Earth Techniques as his body is hardened to the extend of diamond, meaning he would take much less damage than a person's ordinary body being hit.

    Severe Weakness to Lightning Techniques: This was proven when Kakashi told Kakuzu his Earth defense was naturally weak to lightning and was paralyzed when hit by hit.

    This technique would be useful against hard hitting water techniques (high amount of force) from Kisame as well as give Kakuzu the upper hand in close combat, allowing him to tanks several hits without pain or flinching, implying that he could have a active defense whilst simultaneously attacking.




    Earth Grudge Fear Transformation
    This technique is a secret kinjutsu of Takigakure which transforms the user's body into something similar to that of a rag-doll's, which is held together by hundreds of thick black threads. Kakuzu was able to manipulate these threads for many purposes. He was capable of sewing up any injuries that he or others might suffer, most commonly by reattaching body parts.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: This would be Kakuzu’s Trump card against Kisame growing a massive amount of threads he would be able to attack them both simultaneously in Taijutsu while also merging his masks into his body to allow them to use large scale combined ninjutsu attacks e.g. Fire + Wind while also protecting them by keeping them close to him.


    Powerful Lightning Release Techniques
    Kakuzu is also able to lightning release with us assuming on the same scale as both his fire and wind release techniques.

    This would be Kakuzu’s main offensive against Kisame’s water related techniques e.g. Water Prison, and effectively could force a double suicide or for him to force Kisame to release the technique. Kisame’s Samehada fusion mode would also become a burden rather than a trump card due to being reliant on being inside a body of water which would inevitably become a electrocution chamber with Kakuzu’s Large Scale Lightning Techniques.


    The Scourge of the Bloody Mist


    Kisame's Abilities


    Large Scale Water Release Techniques
    Kisame was almost unparalled in magnitude when it came to Water Release techniques except by a select few including Tobirama. He was shown at many instances to summon large bodies of water using his chakra alone because of his massive chakra reserves. This allowed him to excute Water Release techniques that would overwhelm the opponent due to the sheer magnitude of his techniques and alter the entire battlefiled, warping the very terrain in his favour as his Samehada Fusion Mode has been shown to move extremely fast whilst submerged in water.

    This would act as an ideal counter to Kakuzu's Fire and Lightning Ninjutsu respectively, with Water having the natural elemental advantage over Fire along with Lightning making the waves more lethal due to the di-charged nature of water allowing it to conduct electricity as a complete circuit.






    Charka Absorption Capabilities
    Kisame also showed a unique trait of sucking out chakra out of his opponents using his sword Samehada. He shared a symbiotic relationship with his sword, giving it chakra in exchange for sucking out chakra out his opponent on contact and giving it to him allowing him to become theoretically infinitely strong and match his strength to his opponent even if they have higher chakra reserves.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: This would greatly aid Kisame in this fight allowing him to absorb almost all of Kakuzu's Ninjutsu based arsenal individually. Its also a method used by Kisame to gradually wear down his opponent and turn the fight into a fight of stamina, aiming to exhausting the opponent whilst replenishing his own strength resulting in a inevitable win.



    Highly Skilled in Kenjutsu
    Kisame before defecting from his village became known as one of the seven Ninja Swords men. This was an elite group of swordsmen who were argubably the most gifted users of Kenjutsu in the entire Narutoverse. Kisame was highly skilled in Kenjutsu able to defeat opponents without the use of ninjutsu giving him the ability to conserve his chakra levels whlist simultaneously exhausting the opponent with the use of Samehada's special trait.

    Kakuzu was highly skilled in Taijutsu meaning he would be able to rival him in ordinary close combat situations while draining him of his charka to eventually gain the upper hand as his level of performance drops to a unsatisfactory level.

    Infinite Stamina and Cellular Regeneration Capabilities
    In Kisame's fight against Killer Bee after being hit by a Full Power Eight Tails v2 Lariat, Kisame converted the absorbed chakra into cellular regeneration to recover from a move so devastating it seemed lethal enough to kill him through blood loss alone. However without Samehada he doesn't possess this ability and its reliant on how much chakra Samehada has absorbed before hand.

    Kisame being hit with a Lethal Lariat and recovering with the use of Samehada


    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: Kisame's regeneration is a key factor in determining whether or not he stands a chance against Kakuzu, due to the lethality of his opponent's fighting style. Kakuzu mainly utilizes methods which would completely eradicate, singe, tear up or into his opponents but if Kisame can absorb a sufficient amount from his Ninjutsu based attacks whether or not Samehada can absorb them completely, he could recover instantly afterwards by converting the stolen chakra into his own stamina.

    Extremely High Chakra Reserves
    Kisame has also shown to have chakra levels so high it can only be paralleled by that of a Tailed Beast giving rise to his nickname of "The Tailless Tailed Beast". Combined with Samehada's ability to absorb chakra, Kisame is not prone to fatigue and rarely gets tired as demonstrated when he fought the Four Tails Jinchuuriki but only complaining to be a "bit tired".

    This would be useful in a battle of attrition managing to outlast Kakuzu due to the chakra consuming nature of his jutsu without feeling any forms of fatigue himself.



    Samehada Fusion Mode
    Kisame is also able to expand on his shark like appearance by fusing with his sword Samehada to become half-man, half-shark. He completely merges with Samehada which doing so causes him to grow fins and webbed hands that allow him to move through water with considerable ease. Kisame also receives some of Samehada's abilities while in this form, such as being able to extend spikes from his body for offense, and absorbing chakra when others come into direct contact with him, as well as the ability to track chakra.

    How Kakuzu could use this ability against Kisame: This would act as both his trump card and counter to Kakuzu’s Earth Grudge Fear transformation with both users being able to undergo similar transformations and achieve high magnitude elemental attacks in their respective element(s). Also being underwater, Kakuzu could only counter his Water Dome through sacrificing at least one heart in the process.



    Why Kakuzu can overcome Kisame in a 1 vs 1 Battle ?





    -Versatility of Earth Grudge Fear Transformations v1 and v2

    These insanely powerful dark thread transformations are often overlooked when considering Kakuzu’s moveset. To different degrees of effectiveness respectively, they grant him superiority in close combat which Kakuzu could use to his own advantage by:

    -Overwhelming Kisame with a sheer amount of assaults from his threads
    -A restraint mechanism which could be combed with powerful ninjutsu projectiles from his masks
    -A pseudo form of flight by swinging from one part of the terrain to another
    -Use them as prosthetic flexible limbs to hold off Kisame's own attacks whilst simultaneously attacking himself

    Kakuzu's Earth Grudge Transformation v2


    Kakuzu was shown to use his v2 (Long range) transformation to perch himself on higher parts of the terrain, which could be used as a escape mechanism from Kisame’s Water Dome technique or even as shielding himself from large waves of water.

    Kakashi also commented on the threads being far too fast to escape from when he was initially caught which could potentially mean it could act in a similar way to Mifune’s laido technique, granted to a much lesser extent, to prevent Kisame from forming handseals and using his larger scale ninjutsu attacks.

    When merged with his masks, Kakuzu has shown that they retain the ability to act on his command, suggesting that he could engage Kisame in Taijutsu whilst using high scale ninjutsu which would be impossible for Samehada to absorb completely. I’ll return to this specific point later on.

    Kakuzu's Dark Threads Acting like extra Limbs for combat


    Kisame’s reliance on Samehada could be exploited as a severe weakness by Kakuzu, his transformation would enable him to restrain the sword and succeed in either landing a direct hit on Kisame or separating him from his sword which he could seize as a opportunity to land a fatal katon/fuuton infused blast which Kisame wouldn’t be able to regenerate from due to his separation from his sword.

    On a final note, Kakuzu has shown time and time again the lethal purposes his dark threads could be used for, primarily through choking his opponents to death on repeated occasions, and ripping through their bodies with this threads, deep enough so he could integrate their heart into his own system instantaneously. This could possibly suggest an alternative use of Kakuzu's threads to make lethal hits on Kisame, amputate whole limbs or even kill Samehada.




    -Superiority in Ninjutsu and Infinite Battle Tactics

    Kakuzu's multiple element affinities granted to him due to his secret Kinjutsu means he has the undoubted elemental advantage in this fight, along with an insane level of versatility, allowing him to counter a large portions of Kisame's arsenal solely based on this factor.

    Kakuzu's Earth Release: Earth Spear would be an essential counter against Kisame's Taijutsu and raw strength enabling him to tank deadly hits as well as becoming virtually immune to most of his water based ninjutsu, with a much higher resistance to even the most powerful of water techniques due to his armour dissipating the force of the waves. With it, a large portion of Kisame's Ninjutsu becomes useless, acting as nothing but a chakra taxing mechanism.

    This would act in an effective way due to Earth being superior to Water in terms of Elemental Advantage

    Kakuzu using Doton Domu on his body to prevent himself from taking any damage


    Kakuzu also showed himself to be extremely capable in Wind Release, with as little as one blast devastating an immense part of the terrain. Due to the nature of winds governing the direction and strength of waves, this could be used against Kisame's higher scale Water Ninjutsu to severely decrease the momentum of the waves or dissipate them enough so both of the techniques cancel out. In terms of magnitude, it seems to match Kisame's Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave so respectively due to these Water and Wind's elemental neutrality, should result in them cancelling out.

    Kakuzu using Wind Release: Pressure Damage on an immense scale


    His Lightning Release would also grant him the added ability of an electrocution alternative mainly when Kisame is covered in water through a defensive Jutsu or even a double suicide method when Kisame activates his Water Dome, after this Kakuzu could follow up on this by reviving himself.




    -Strategic use of Pseudo Immortality and Masks


    Whether we'd like to admit it or not, in this battle Kisame must kill Kakuzu a minimum of 5 times to win this battle. Contrary to popular belief, Kakuzu doesn't lose hearts as easily as they initially think, this mindset was instilled due to Danzo's wasteful nature in the use of his Izagani.

    After carefully re-observing the Kakuzu fight i noticed each heart he lost was through a matter of circumstance rather than a naturally wasteful nature. His first heart was lost through Kakashi's sneak attack fighting style, where Kakuzu wasn't even expecting a assault like that, nor could he detect his presence. Kisame's fighting style is much more power over speed, and doesn't rely on the element of surprise like Kakashi.

    His second heart, the one situated in his body (arguably the hardest to kill) was done through a indirect combination of Kakashi obtaining Kakuzu's own blood and Shikamaru following up on this by ensuring Hidan used this same blood for his Jashin Ritual, thus killing another one of Kakuzu's hearts without use of their own efforts.

    Kakuzu saying it was a noteworthy rarity of losing more than one heart in a fight


    Kakuzu's 3rd Heart was destroyed due to facing far too many opponents whilst grounded on the floor as it had to reintegrate into Kakuzu's body, so the lack of support for that individual heart meant it became Super Sized Chouji vs Lightning Mask, a battle Chouji would inevitably win. Kakuzu's 4th and 5th hearts were also destroyed through the efforts of Naruto by getting hit with Rasenshuriken, an attack which destroys the opponent on a molecular level.

    From this, we can see that Kakuzu only lost hearts through efforts of teamwork and combined tactics rather than sacrifcing them needlessly, in a 1 vs 1 against Kisame he would be able to use them individually whilst supporting them with his own efforts by engaging Kisame directly to prevent him from having the opportunity to deal any damage to them. Even then Kakuzu claimed that in his countless years of combat, its been "ages" since he went through 2 hearts in the same fight.

    Strategic use of his hearts could also allow Kakuzu to counter many of Kisame's "uncounterable" jutsu such as Suiton Daikodan (Great Shark Water Bullet) and Samehada Fusion + Water Dome.

    How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Water Dome Prison: His Kisame's dome has proven itself to be a troublesome and almost impossible jutsu for most shinobi to counter effectively. However it has shown one slight but exploitable weakness which Kakuzu's arsenal meets the criteria for. His ability to split into 5 seperate bodies, with each of his hearts manifesting their own body which are capable of flight. Through the use of this ability alone, they would be out of the range of the prison. Even then, if they were caught they could travel in separate directions, with Kisame undoubtedly going after Kakuzu. Once the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown the ability to reintegrate back into his body and revive him after he's dead.

    Killer Bee's tactic to exploit a key weakness in Kisame's Water Prison + Samehada Fusion Mode


    How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Great Shark Water Bullet: Kisame's attack is a guided projectile which he maintains through manually controlling it towards the target. Kakuzu could momentarily defend with a high scale elemental blast and then proceed to hit Kisame with one of his other masks without the fear of Samehada absorbing it.

    Even then, Kakuzu could defend against it with a stall tactic with one of his hearts, and proceed to either kill Samehada who is unattended or attack Kisame while he is immobile.




    -Sheer Scale of Ninjutsu Overwhelms Samehada’s Charka Absorption Capabilities


    Samehada's chakra absorption abilites are anything but limitless, in the fight against Killer Bee it was physically unable to absorb his entire V2 Transformation, with the remaining attack becoming resultant damage. Kisame was only able to recover from this resulting damage by grasping Samehada through his own efforts, if the injury was far too severe for Samehada to fully recover, then he would be crippled for the remainder of the fight.

    Kisame claiming he's unable to absorb Killer Bee's v2 Cloak fully


    Kakuzu can further take advantage of this due to Samehada's natrual weakness in absorbing Katon techniques. When faced against Itachi's Great Fire ball, Samehada struggled to absorb the entire technique, despite it being a relatively basic rank tech. Considering both Samehada's upper limit on how much chakra it can absorb from an attack and its difficulty against Fire Release Techniques, Kakuzu's Wind and Fire Infused Blasts become the perfect counter due to it being on such a magnitude its impossible to absorb fully and the intensity of the wind infused flames.

    Samehada Struggling to absorb Itachi's Katon Technique


    The result would be, both Kisame and Samehada each receiving extremely severe burns from the flames remaining after Samehada's efforts to absorb the complete attack. The damage received could very well be enough to kill Samehada or prevent Kisame from recovering fully, allowing Kakuzu to take advantage of a permanently damaged opponent.

    Who do you think would win this battle, Kisame or Kakuzu and why ? Let the Debates Begin.


    Vs
    I do like your threads but this one was completely biased against kisame in every way possible and at no point in time did you cover kisames perspective.This was less a vs thread and more of a bash thread in my opinion and i believe only kakazu fan boys will react positively to this thread /:
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    how fking long did it actually take to create this thread?
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperius View Post
    how fking long did it actually take to create this thread?
    Not that long actually
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadManWonderLand View Post
    I do like your threads but this one was completely biased against kisame in every way possible and at no point in time did you cover kisames perspective.This was less a vs thread and more of a bash thread in my opinion and i believe only kakazu fan boys will react positively to this thread /:
    I dont really see the "bash" part but all of the abilities were shown for each character...I think the debates that have been going on have proved either character can take the win but the title is stating that its "actually possible" for kakazu to counter and defeat kisames and his techniques.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    Not that long actually
    Thanks for responding to my posts man, you did so good at countering all my points that you said you were totally going to respond to.

    /sarcasm
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joki View Post
    Thanks for responding to my posts man, you did so good at countering all my points that you said you were totally going to respond to.

    /sarcasm
    He doesn't need to re write his argument I have done it already.

    Starting @

    10-28-2012, 03:23 PM
    EjBlack
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by EjBlack View Post
    He doesn't need to re write his argument I have done it already.

    Starting @

    10-28-2012, 03:23 PM
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    That's your argument. Not his. I was waiting for NK to reply.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joki View Post
    That's not a counter, in that case one of his hearts is down, and Kisame is that much closer to victory. How will the masks come close to surviving Daikodan if even Kakuzu can't? The attack is extremely massive I have trouble believing the masks will somehow come out of daikodan perfectly fine and be able to save Kakuzu.

    Especially when Kakuzu has no knowledge and will use his masks to fuel Daikodan with its jutsu. What about in your "V2" form that you talk about so much? He had both of his masks inside him already, Daikodan would destroy him and wipe out multiple hearts like FRS did.

    And how does Daikodan leave Kisame open? Kakuzu's quite "Open" when his weak masks are flying around and Kakuzu's lying dead surrounded by Kisame's territory(a lake) with Kisame at full chakra and Kakuzu and his masks constantly being drained over time.
    Why would he dispel the water dome if 4 masks are going in different directions? I mean really. You need to think rationally here, what happens after that? It's become apparent to me you're avoiding the main points of answering the arguments you have no counter to.

    If Kisame kills Kakuzu, he's down 1 less jutsu and 4 weak masks have to get past Kisame and revive him. Which is all ridiculous in and of itself but what happens if all that does happen and Kakuzu gets revived safely? How does he hope to actually hurt or kill Kisame off when he has water dome, thousand sof sharks and daikodan with nigh infinite chakra?

    Where's your support for Kakuzu's chakra? When Kisame drains him, he doesn't get a 2nd full chakra count each time a heart revives him. In case you didn't know, there aren't 5 Kakuzu, once his chakra is gone it's gone. If you don't think I'm right then prove me wrong and support his chakra count.
    First of all, a lot of your counters are slightly baseless. Daikodan on the same destructive level as FRS ? Destroying all the masks at once ? and so on.

    The essential principle to how he counters this tech is due to his masks's ability to fly. Simply flying out of the range of the attack is a worthy endeavor, even if as little as one mask lands a direct hit on Kisame while he is directing the Daikodan, he will suffer damage depending on the element and might even become unable to direct the attack at Kakuzu who could now dodge it with fair ease.

    If all else fails, attempting to tank it with his Doton Domu is still a viable option.

    As for escaping the Water Dome, Kakuzu would die of suffocation before he would of chakra drain. Kisame would dispel the water dome because he has no knowledge that the masks can continue acting without Kakuzu being alive, unless you're suggesting Kisame has full knowledge ?

    Also if the hearts have no chakra count themselves, how exactly do the function, does Kakuzu transmit chakra wirelessly to them much like Nagato ? Hmm, i didn't think so either.

    Whilst i'm countering your points, you may as well do the same for my points. Re-read Post 136 and counter

    How Kisame combats the all round elemental blasts ?

    How Kisame deals with 100+ simultaneous assaults from Kakuzu's dark threads in his v1 and v2 Earth Grudge Transformations respectively ?
     
         
    Last edited by Negative Knight; 11-03-2012 at 11:31 AM.

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative Knight View Post
    First of all, a lot of your counters are slightly baseless. Daikodan on the same destructive level as FRS ? Destroying all the masks at once ? and so on.
    I never once said it was on FRS's destructive level. but considering Kakuzu has no knowledge of it and will likely have his separated hearts clash blasts with it which you've given nothing to counter for either...
    The essential principle to how he counters this tech is due to his masks's ability to fly. Simply flying out of the range of the attack is a worthy endeavor, even if as little as one mask lands a direct hit on Kisame while he is directing the Daikodan, he will suffer damage depending on the element and might even become unable to direct the attack at Kakuzu who could now dodge it with fair ease.
    Ok what? I already addressed this. Not only is Kisame hardly visible due to the sheer size of daikodan but he's surrounded by daikodan and water for quite some time, the blasts would just get absorbed. I've seen no support that the masks would be able to escape such a vast range either. And if they do? Kisame just picks them off easily considering Choji's basic expanded punches destroy masks easy when they're on their own.
    If all else fails, attempting to tank it with his Doton Domu is still a viable option.
    I enjoy how you accuse me of making baseless claims when yours are even more so. Your posts are more thoughtful speculation than actual proof or support that you think you have.
    As for escaping the Water Dome, Kakuzu would die of suffocation before he would of chakra drain.
    Despite the still uncountered fact that Killer Bee's chakra was entirely drained to the point of passing out in a few seconds and Killer Bee has loads more chakra than Kakuzu could hope to have?
    Kisame would dispel the water dome because he has no knowledge that the masks can continue acting without Kakuzu being alive, unless you're suggesting Kisame has full knowledge ?
    Oh? Since when can't Kisame sense chakra? Unless you're contradicting yourself when you admitted his masks have chakra?

    And yeah....unless they randomly play dead and shut off their entire chakra system, I'm going to need further proof that Kisame is going to and dispel water dome after Kakuzu dies despite the clear indication that his masks didn't stop moving. Really now?

    But guess what: Even if all your ridiculous claims did happen, and Kisame became oblivious to the masks despite being able to sense their chakra within his dome, and if he DID drop the dome when Kakuzu died despite the masks still moving, and he did sit on his ass and wait for all the masks to revive Kakuzu, and even if the masks DID have the same amount of chakra as Kakuzu and revitalize him to full health, then we STILL have a problem! Kakuzu is still posed with the problem of killing a full health Kisame who constantly drains Kakuzu's chakra that he can never get more of. You still posted no valid ways of Kakuzu ever hoping to actually damage Kisame and kill him off meanwhile Kisame just gets stronger and stronger and Kakuzu gets weaker.
    Also if the hearts have no chakra count themselves, how exactly do the function, does Kakuzu transmit chakra wirelessly to them much like Nagato ? Hmm, i didn't think so either.
    When have I ever said they don't have chakra? I said the masks don't restore Kakuzu back to full chakra, last I checked every single mask doesn't equal 1 Kakuzu. Unless you actually have manga scans that say otherwise, but it's pretty obvious you're vastly overrating the masks at this point.

    The masks, who were wiped out by fodder attacks before, you act like the masks and the masks alone will stand some sort of a chance vs all of the above and Kisame's utter top tier arsenal. Tell that to these scans:


    Whilst i'm countering your points, you may as well do the same for my points. Re-read Post 136 and counter
    I already did that, Re-read post 137 and counter
    How Kisame combats the all round elemental blasts ?
    I haven't seen scans supporting Kakuzu's jutsus even working inside Kisame's dome, hell regular water period, or somehow not being absorbed by Daikodan or Samehada, or being able to fight and defeat thousands of regenerating sharks, or able to survive in a close quarters match with a water clone at 1/3s of the power of the Kisame that fought Gai, while getting chakra drained forever.
    How Kisame deals with 100+ simultaneous assaults from Kakuzu's dark threads in his v1 and v2 Earth Grudge Transformations respectively ?
    Are you forgetting Kisame has samehada...?

    ...and literally every other jutsu mentioned in this thread up to this point?
     
         

  23. #173
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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Well, well, if you asked me before this thread I would give it to kisame but now that you have proof I guess I have no other option than to agree with you. Kisame's downfall is that he has no defense and as for the masks, kisame could use clones to fight them and destroy them or at least give him a chance to breath. I have to disagree with what you said about kakuzu's defence being as hard as diamond though. My post is short because I really have not sat down to analyze these characters very well.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    I have been waiting for you to counter me for 2 weeks Joki.
     
         

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    Re: (Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

    Quote Originally Posted by EjBlack View Post
    I have been waiting for you to counter me for 2 weeks Joki.
    Where's your post?
     
         

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