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  1. #1
    Plot no Jutsu! GdaTyler's Avatar
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    So Madara died 16 years ago?

    The only way Obito would have become so strong and have Madara know him, is probably because he was trained by him. I don't know why Madara looks so young when reincarnated so was he once before? Anyways it seems he died before Tobi fought Minato. Please no hate. I don't hate that Tobi is Obito, I'm just surprised and just trying to patch up the holes and clear things up...
     
         
    Last edited by GdaTyler; 08-31-2012 at 06:32 AM.

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Given Nagato's age, he died 35-45 years ago
     
         

  3. #3
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    it is not the only way actually that he could become so strong
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Madara died shortly after gaining his Rinnegan. Since Nagato had the Rinnegan during the Second World War, and was a little kid at that, then Madara died before that war. That was way before the village was attacked by Obito/Tobi.
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    no, no, no, first of all, madara died after the battle with the 1st but managed to create zestu. zestu probably was madara messenger and collected eyes when the uchiha died. so maybe obito was still alived and zestu feed him hatred and anger.
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    He would've died right before the ending of the Second Great Ninja War.
    And seeing how the Sannin were in their LATE Teens there, I don't see how Obito would've even been born yet. & Nagato had just gotten the Rinnegan by then, transplanted into Nagato's eyes. So... Yeah, he would be dead most likely. So around 34+ years he's been dead.
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    No; Madara would have only died during the Second War if he had activated his Rinnegan by then and given it to Nagato. Given that Tobi's words to Konan are the only reason we have to believe that Nagato's eyes aren't his own, we really have no reason to believe this.

    Is it possible that Madara did die then? Yeah. Is it proven? Not really. Anything that comes out of Tobi's mouth is suspect, quite frankly.
     
         

  8. #8
    Sasuke Uchiha venuboppudi's Avatar
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    may be all wars in the series are linked ,so that madara could achieve his dream by first killing all the strongest shinobi and then using his justu on weaker ones who can't resist
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by jt1891 View Post
    No; Madara would have only died during the Second War if he had activated his Rinnegan by then and given it to Nagato. Given that Tobi's words to Konan are the only reason we have to believe that Nagato's eyes aren't his own, we really have no reason to believe this.

    Is it possible that Madara did die then? Yeah. Is it proven? Not really. Anything that comes out of Tobi's mouth is suspect, quite frankly.
    , it came out of Madara's mouth that he died after unlocking Rinnegan.
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverSlick View Post
    , it came out of Madara's mouth that he died after unlocking Rinnegan.
    Yes. But we don't know -when- he managed to do so.
     
         

  11. #11
    Not sure if badass xeL0wns's Avatar
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by GdaTyler View Post
    The only way Obito would have become so strong and have Madara know him, is probably because he was trained by him. I don't know why Madara looks so young when reincarnated so was he once before? Anyways it seems he died before Tobi fought Minato. Please no hate. I don't hate that Tobi is Obito, I'm just surprised and just trying to patch up the holes and clear things up...
    in order for him to actually know Obito, let alone train him or be his mentor, then he must have died more recently than previously thought. besides it also explains how Kabuto located his grave, it would had been harder to find the place if it was 35-40 years old.

    it could also explain in a way that line Obito used when confronting Minato and the latter asked him if he was Madara and that he couldn't be as Madara was dead.
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    i think he died after giving his rinnegan to nagato and that was before obito even got crushed by a rock,which is weird,because madara and tobi seemed to know each other,so tobi being obito still doesnt add up.....:shrug:
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    The only thing I can say is that perhaps Nagato being given the actual Rinnegan was a lie, because i'm pretty certain that the man Itachi spoke to was Madara.
     
         

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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    The only thing I can say is that perhaps Nagato being given the actual Rinnegan was a lie, because i'm pretty certain that the man Itachi spoke to was Madara.
    if the man Itachi spoke to was Madara, then Madara was alive until really very recently... i don't know, not criticizing here or anything, as what you say is also what i believe. just saying that the timeline is all messed up.
     
         

  16. #16
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by supino View Post
    if the man Itachi spoke to was Madara, then Madara was alive until really very recently... i don't know, not criticizing here or anything, as what you say is also what i believe. just saying that the timeline is all messed up.
    Yeah well, I say that for a variety of reasons since;

    - This is a visual manga, and as such, visual clues are to be picked up on. Tobi suddenly having long hair is certainly a clue left to us by Kishimoto. Why would Tobi randomly grow his hair and then cut it again? I don't buy into the fact that there was only one Tobi.
    - Obito received a 1 in the databooks with regards to intelligence. Am I to believe he trolled the shinobi world single handedly? lol.
    - Minato and Itachi, cited as being among the smartest characters in this manga, were not wrong. Minato had an initial hunch that Tobi could be Madara, whilst Itachi was especially sure that the man he met was Madara, and for good reason to.
    - Kishimoto confirmed in an interview that Madara and Tobi do know eachother. If Tobi really is Obito in body, mind & soul (which I doubt at this point in the manga), Madara would've lived up until at least Kakashi Gaiden.

    I just wholly think Madara was the brains behind the operation whilst "Obito" was the 'brawn' (if you can call it that). After all, Madara would've been over 100 years old by that point and surely in no condition to fight.
     
         
    Last edited by OnPoint; 08-31-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  17. #17
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Madara has Hashirama's DNA in him.

    Kabuto revived Madara "beyond his prime"

    To me that means, with the rinnegan AND a health youthful body
     
         

  18. #18
    The Amazing Uchiha captainEO's Avatar
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Yeah well, I say that for a variety of reasons since;

    - This is a visual manga, and as such, visual clues are to be picked up on. Tobi suddenly having long hair is certainly a clue left to us by Kishimoto. Why would Tobi randomly grow his hair and then cut it again? I don't buy into the fact that there was only one Tobi.
    - Obito received a 1 in the databooks with regards to intelligence. Am I to believe he trolled the shinobi world single handedly? lol.
    - Minato and Itachi, cited as being among the smartest characters in this manga, were not wrong. Minato had an initial hunch that Tobi could be Madara, whilst Itachi was especially sure that the man he met was Madara, and for good reason to.
    - Kishimoto confirmed in an interview that Madara and Tobi do know eachother. If Tobi really is Obito in body, mind & soul (which I doubt at this point in the manga), Madara would've lived up until at least Kakashi Gaiden.

    I just wholly think Madara was the brains behind the operation whilst "Obito" was the 'brawn' (if you can call it that). After all, Madara would've been over 100 years old by that point and surely in no condition to fight.
    But that can't work because of the timeline.

    Edo Madara still looks quite young = 30s, 40s most. That would be impossible if he survived until Obito's time. You can verify this by using Tsunade's age, he'd look like Hiruzen in terms of maturation.

    But the main problem is that he gave Nagato his Rinnegan.
    He said "I died shortly after awakening these eyes", and he knows of Nagato. He says, "that brat finally grew up".
    This means he met Nagato but died before he matured.
    Nagato awoke the Rinnegan as a young child, certainly before adolescence.
    So Madara must have died around that point, hence he could never have met Obito.
     
         
    Last edited by captainEO; 08-31-2012 at 02:32 PM.

  19. #19
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainEO View Post
    But that can't work because of the timeline.

    Edo Madara still looks quite young = 30s, 40s most. That would be impossible if he survived until Obito's time. You can verify this by using Tsunade's age, he'd look like Hiruzen in terms of maturation.

    But the main problem is that he gave Nagato his Rinnegan.
    He said "I died shortly after awakening these eyes", and he knows of Nagato. He says, "that brat finally grew up".
    This means he met Nagato but died before he matured.
    Nagato awoke the Rinnegan as a young child, certainly before adolescence.
    So Madara must have died around that point, hence he could never have met Obito.
    - And that's why Kabuto completed him to 'beyond his prime'.
    - Nagato either; gained Uchiha DNA and not the eyes themselves, awakened it naturally by himself (making Tobi a liar) or Kishi is going to retcon that statement. Kishimoto already confirmed that Tobi and Madara know eachother, so; Madara lived until Kakashi Gaiden (if Tobi is 100% Obito) or Tobi simply isn't Obito in mind or soul.
     
         

  20. #20
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainEO View Post
    But that can't work because of the timeline.

    Edo Madara still looks quite young = 30s, 40s most. That would be impossible if he survived until Obito's time. You can verify this by using Tsunade's age, he'd look like Hiruzen in terms of maturation.

    But the main problem is that he gave Nagato his Rinnegan.
    He said "I died shortly after awakening these eyes", and he knows of Nagato. He says, "that brat finally grew up".
    This means he met Nagato but died before he matured.
    Nagato awoke the Rinnegan as a young child, certainly before adolescence.
    So Madara must have died around that point, hence he could never have met Obito.
    as this person said, edo Madara is special:

    Quote Originally Posted by p0002q View Post
    Madara has Hashirama's DNA in him.

    Kabuto revived Madara "beyond his prime"

    To me that means, with the rinnegan AND a health youthful body
    @Noddy; yep, but still even with the multiple Tobi theory half of all the issues are addressed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Yeah well, I say that for a variety of reasons since;

    - This is a visual manga, and as such, visual clues are to be picked up on. Tobi suddenly having long hair is certainly a clue left to us by Kishimoto. Why would Tobi randomly grow his hair and then cut it again? I don't buy into the fact that there was only one Tobi.
    - Obito received a 1 in the databooks with regards to intelligence. Am I to believe he trolled the shinobi world single handedly? lol.
    - Minato and Itachi, cited as being among the smartest characters in this manga, were not wrong. Minato had an initial hunch that Tobi could be Madara, whilst Itachi was especially sure that the man he met was Madara, and for good reason to.
    - Kishimoto confirmed in an interview that Madara and Tobi do know eachother. If Tobi really is Obito in body, mind & soul (which I doubt at this point in the manga), Madara would've lived up until at least Kakashi Gaiden.

    I just wholly think Madara was the brains behind the operation whilst "Obito" was the 'brawn' (if you can call it that). After all, Madara would've been over 100 years old by that point and surely in no condition to fight.
    and for all the above reasons perfectly explained in the above posts we can ALL agree that the timeline is messed up.

    if kamui has a hax power, i swear that sb has to think of chakra bending and deal with hax powers in the narutoverse once and for all!
     
         

  21. #21
    The Amazing Uchiha captainEO's Avatar
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    - And that's why Kabuto completed him to 'beyond his prime'.
    I think when Kabuto said "Prime" he was referring to EMS Madara, that Valley of the End fight specifically. And we know that he didn't have Rinnegan at that point.

    By "beyond prime", I'm sure he was referring to Rinnegan + Hashirama's DNA/face/techniques. Though, Madara quickly shot that down by saying that Kabuto didn't give him anything. He awoke Rinnegan by himself.

    - Nagato either; gained Uchiha DNA and not the eyes themselves, awakened it naturally by himself (making Tobi a liar) or Kishi is going to retcon that statement. Kishimoto already confirmed that Tobi and Madara know eachother, so; Madara lived until Kakashi Gaiden (if Tobi is 100% Obito) or Tobi simply isn't Obito in mind or soul.
    Kishi can only retcon that statement, because giving Nagato some Uchiha DNA is futile. That's no different from any other Uchiha right? There's no realistic way for Nagato to skip 1 tomoe and go straight to Rinnegan. And in the manga, Kishi establishes that Sharingan-->Rinnegan is unique to Uchiha due their elder son lineage. So Nagato being Uzumaki shouldn't improve his chances of acquiring Rinnegan or grant it to him instantly because they aren't related.

    So that can't work right? Because Nagato had grown up completely by Kakashi Gaiden time, that's a significant amount of time which would make Madara's own statement false - "I died shortly after awakening these eyes"
     
         

  22. #22
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainEO View Post
    I think when Kabuto said "Prime" he was referring to EMS Madara, that Valley of the End fight specifically. And we know that he didn't have Rinnegan at that point.

    By "beyond prime", I'm sure he was referring to Rinnegan + Hashirama's DNA/face/techniques. Though, Madara quickly shot that down by saying that Kabuto didn't give him anything. He awoke Rinnegan by himself.
    Er, Madara said he awakened it shortly before he died; therefore, he must've been either really old or really injured when he gained that particular dojutsu. Thus, Madara being revived in a youthful/healthy body whilst wielding the Rinnegan = completed beyond his prime (his prime would've been just the EMS, since youthful EMS Madara > old/sick Rinnegan Madara).

    Kishi can only retcon that statement, because giving Nagato some Uchiha DNA is futile. That's no different from any other Uchiha right? There's no realistic way for Nagato to skip 1 tomoe and go straight to Rinnegan. And in the manga, Kishi establishes that Sharingan-->Rinnegan is unique to Uchiha due their elder son lineage. So Nagato being Uzumaki shouldn't improve his chances of acquiring Rinnegan or grant it to him instantly because they aren't related.

    So that can't work right? Because Nagato had grown up completely by Kakashi Gaiden time, that's a significant amount of time which would make Madara's own statement false - "I died shortly after awakening these eyes"
    Kishimoto can hardly retcon at statement he made in person, especially since it was made after the Tobi-Nagato-Rinnegan statement. Regardless of manga logic interms of a person awakening the Rinnegan, Madara knew Nagato but he also knew Tobi. One statement is going to get retconned, and I doubt it's going to be the 'Tobi and Madara know eachother'; rather, the 'Nagato was given the Rinnegan' or 'Madara awakened them shortly before he died'.

    Orrrrrr

    This can all be explained by the 'shortly' bit being seen as 'lots and lots of years'.
     
         
    Last edited by OnPoint; 08-31-2012 at 03:21 PM.

  23. #23
    The Amazing Uchiha captainEO's Avatar
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    Er, Madara said he awakened it shortly before he died; therefore, he must've been either really old or really injured when he gained that particular dojutsu. Thus, Madara being revived in a youthful/healthy body whilst wielding the Rinnegan = completed beyond his prime (his prime would've been just the EMS, since youthful EMS Madara > old/sick Rinnegan Madara).
    Nah, I think you're getting it mixed up. At this point, I doubt we'll agree about this part. I'll just counter 1 last time.

    Edo Tensei is a jutsu that summons one in the state they were in right before they died, exactly at that moment.

    Hence, Itachi still had his eyes, Deidara had a physical form.

    Madara's apperance matches the way he looked at death. Meaning he was young (relatively at least), he never reached Hiruzen's age, hence he doesn't appear like that.

    Also, Kabuto never knew that Madara had awakened Rinnegan, there's proof this - it's why Madara responds, "no you didn't give me this power, I awakened these eyes before I died". Kabuto had assumed that Rinnegan was his doing.

    The only Madara Kabuto knows is the EMS Madara, or Madara from his "Golden Years".
    The only modification Kabuto made to Madara was Hashirama's cells and he assumed that he gave him Rinnegan somehow, hence "beyond prime", Rinnegan + Hashirama's cells/techniques > EMS alone.

    Kishimoto can hardly retcon at statement he made in person, especially since it was made after the Tobi-Nagato-Rinnegan statement. Regardless of manga logic interms of a person awakening the Rinnegan, Madara knew Nagato but he also knew Tobi. One statement is going to get retconned, and I doubt it's going to be the 'Tobi and Madara know eachother'; rather, the 'Nagato was given the Rinnegan'.
    Either way, Kishi has f*cked up the story.

    It's either Kishi entirely screws up the entire mythology behind the series - the Sage, his sons + lineage. Not to mention the entire nature of Dojutsu, Edo Tensei's working etc.
    by extending Madara's timeline to the last Shinobi war

    Or paints Minato, Itachi and several other characters to be idiots. Ruins timeline with inconsistent ages and story events. And finds an implausible way for Obito to have drastically improved in skill within 1 year.
    by not extending Madara's timeline to the last Shinobi war
     
         
    Last edited by captainEO; 08-31-2012 at 03:43 PM.

  24. #24
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainEO View Post
    Edo Tensei is a jutsu that summons one in the state they were in right before they died, exactly at that moment.

    Hence, Itachi still had his eyes, Deidara had a physical form.

    Madara's apperance matches the way he looked at death. Meaning he was young (relatively at least), he never reached Hiruzen's age, hence he doesn't appear like that.

    Also, Kabuto never knew that Madara had awakened Rinnegan, there's proof this - it's why Madara responds, "no you didn't give me this power, I awakened these eyes before I died". Kabuto had assumed that Rinnegan was his doing.

    The only Madara Kabuto knows is the EMS Madara, or Madara from his "Golden Years".
    The only modification Kabuto made to Madara was Hashirama's cells and he assumed that he gave him Rinnegan somehow, hence "beyond prime", Rinnegan + Hashirama's cells/techniques > EMS alone.
    See, that right there has never been stated. Where are you getting that notion from? If Itachi had his eyes, why was he not half blind? Why was Nagato's white striken hair (caused by using too much chakra) not returned to normal, or his sickly body? That is a common misconception regarding Edo Tensei since the manga has never made it clear whether or not what you've claimed is the case.

    Explained in detail here.
     
         
    Last edited by OnPoint; 08-31-2012 at 03:57 PM.

  25. #25
    The Amazing Uchiha captainEO's Avatar
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    Re: So Madara died 16 years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noddy View Post
    See, that right there has never been stated. Where are you getting that notion from? If Itachi had his eyes, why was he not half blind? Why was Nagato's white striken hair (caused by using too much chakra) not returned to normal, or his sickly body? That is a common misconception regarding Edo Tensei since the manga has never made it clear whether or not what you've claimed is the case.
    Maybe.

    But it doesn't change the inconsistency.

    Had Madara lived till the last Shinobi War, he'd have seen Nagato grow up completely. Nagato would have been older than Minato at that point.

    When he was revived, Madara referred to Nagato as a brat. Can you imagine referring to someone Minato's age or above as a brat? That makes no sense.
    "That brat has finally grown up", "finally grown up", "grown up"

    According to that Madara certainly died long before the last Shinobi war (before Nagato matured) but Kishi may retcon that.

    Though I do know that Madara wasn't surprised by his appearance or state. He expected to look like that (he thought he was revived using Rinnegan), which leads me to believe that Madara resembled the way he looked right now at the time of his death.
     
         

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