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  1. #1
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    Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Soo, i know that there were threads about Vasto Lorde but let me ask differently.

    During Arrancar arc, Toshiro explained to us that Vasto Lorde is an evolved form of Adjuchas and that it's the most powerfull form of the fusion of Hollows.

    BUT we actually never saw a Vasto Lorde with our own eyes. You may protest that Espada or some of Espada were in fact VL but there wasn't given any solid proof. At Toshiro's explaining we saw a silhouette of VL:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach...er/197/page/19
    and we can clearly see a pair of thorns.

    Now, there wasn't anyone among Espada that had thorns...maybe aside from Ulquiorra in his Segunda Etapa:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach...er/347/page/18

    There was a debate, if there was a possibility that Ichigo in his H2 form was actually VL as he resembled a VL the best:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach/chapter/350/page/5
    VL should be the strongest Hollow...and if we take the possibility of Ichigo in this form being a VL we can easily say that if all VL should be that strong, Gotei 13 would be in crisis. Why? In this form Ichigo's power levels were....
    I would say he was slightly weaker than in his post-Dangai form and that is holly-molly crazy strong. WTH . His intelligence was low but w/e. And btw i don't think that Ichigo's H2 form was a plot hole...

    Now, my real question is this: Why didn't we see any VL and do you think we will ever see them, or will they be forgotten? I would really like to see VL because in my opinion Espada weren't VL.

    Peace :izuna:
     
         

  2. #2
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    I think staark and Ulquiorra were, Look at it this way, NO OTHER being so far has had staarks ability to split his soul and power and STILL kill any hollow that comes near him with just his spiritual pressure.

    He was deemed the primera by Aizen and Strong enough to take on ukitake and Shunsui, I would say he is a Vasto lorde.

    Heres probably the biggest reason i think Staark is a vasto lorde http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach...er/197/page/19

    Staark seemed stronger than ALMOST ANY captain,And he looked just like a human even before becoming an arrancar.
     
         

  3. #3
    Senior Member NLee's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Even before Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa he still resembles a Vasto Lorde, albeit only half his mask


    I find it unlikely that Ichigo in his Hollow form was a Vasto Lorde. I mean, he can't be one. By definition, Vasto Lorde are fusions of Hollows who gradually evolve up the chain of Menos. I don't see how Ichigo could have been a Vasto Lorde even if he looked like one. It doesn't fit with what a Vasto Lorde is suppose to be
     
         

  4. #4
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Ichigo's hollow surfaced when he died, It could be a vasto lorde, due to it coming into being when ichigo was becoming a hollow and Perhaps a Soul reaper's zanpaktou absorbs some of the hollows souls and when ichigo became a hollow he had already killed a LOT of hollows, Weird theory but maybe haha
     
         

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    Member mlickko's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    If someone can be a VL without having thorns then yes, Stark prolly had enough power to be one. About Ichigo...i myseld ain't sure about it, just basing it on resemblence with silhouette. That's why i would like to see a VL...(i mean, in the actual scene there would be said "i am VL" or simply some being with proof he is VL) and some explanation about Ichigo's H2 form as well...
    Kubo said he will try to explain most things we consider plot holes, so i hope this will be one of it. wease:
     
         

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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Stark was a Vasto Lorde and everyone up from 8 or 9 (cant remember anymore) I mean the guy with two faceballs that could mimic other people. he said he was the only one not vasto lord.

    BTW: Just showing one Vasto Lorde that very much resembles Ulu doesnt mean everyone has to look like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!


    From Adjuchas upwards every hollow looks differently! Its like an evolution: Cells, Animals, Homo Errectus/Caveman (Vasto Lord), Human (Arrancer)
     
         

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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    I honestly believe the top 4 Espada were all Vasto Lorde's... I mean, didn't Aizen specifically tell them they couldn't release their powers within the vicinity of Las Noches or they would destroy it?

    And plus - I thought it was said Hali was a VL? And if Barragan was really the King of Hollows, then he has to have been a VL... As for Stark... Well, he's Stark.. Haha, nuff said.
     
         

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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by mlickko View Post
    Soo, i know that there were threads about Vasto Lorde but let me ask differently.

    During Arrancar arc, Toshiro explained to us that Vasto Lorde is an evolved form of Adjuchas and that it's the most powerfull form of the fusion of Hollows.

    BUT we actually never saw a Vasto Lorde with our own eyes. You may protest that Espada or some of Espada were in fact VL but there wasn't given any solid proof. At Toshiro's explaining we saw a silhouette of VL:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach...er/197/page/19
    and we can clearly see a pair of thorns.

    Now, there wasn't anyone among Espada that had thorns...maybe aside from Ulquiorra in his Segunda Etapa:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach...er/347/page/18

    There was a debate, if there was a possibility that Ichigo in his H2 form was actually VL as he resembled a VL the best:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach/chapter/350/page/5
    VL should be the strongest Hollow...and if we take the possibility of Ichigo in this form being a VL we can easily say that if all VL should be that strong, Gotei 13 would be in crisis. Why? In this form Ichigo's power levels were....
    I would say he was slightly weaker than in his post-Dangai form and that is holly-molly crazy strong. WTH . His intelligence was low but w/e. And btw i don't think that Ichigo's H2 form was a plot hole...

    Now, my real question is this: Why didn't we see any VL and do you think we will ever see them, or will they be forgotten? I would really like to see VL because in my opinion Espada weren't VL.

    Peace :izuna:
    espada and enraged ichigo (vs ulquiorra) where all vasto lordes i think
     
         

  9. #9
    Senior Member NLee's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by |KirA| View Post
    Stark was a Vasto Lorde and everyone up from 8 or 9 (cant remember anymore) I mean the guy with two faceballs that could mimic other people. he said he was the only one not vasto lord.

    BTW: Just showing one Vasto Lorde that very much resembles Ulu doesnt mean everyone has to look like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!


    From Adjuchas upwards every hollow looks differently! Its like an evolution: Cells, Animals, Homo Errectus/Caveman (Vasto Lord), Human (Arrancer)
    That's not true. Aaroniero said he was the only Gillian Arrancar in the Espada:
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/.../chapter/267/7
    He didn't say he was the only non-Vasto Lorde

    Based on the silhouette given by Kubo, Yammy was an Adjuchas. So was Grimmjow:
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/...chapter/284/11

    __________________________________________________ _________

    Considering Grimmjow was #6, I'd bet Zommari and Szayel were also Adjuchas since they were below Grimmjow in rank. I find it hard to believe a Vasto Lorde Arrancar would rank below an Adjuchas. Hell, I'd even classify Nnoitra as an Adjuchas.

    If I absolutely had to choose which of the Espada were Vasto Lorde, it'd be restricted to #4 and maybe above. But even then I'd be more willing to call Ulquiorra a Vasto Lorde before Halibel, Barragan, and even Stark. No matter how strong the Top 3 were I still have my doubts

    You're right about not all Vasto Lorde resembling the silhouette shown by Kubo, but as far as Ulquiorra is concerned it's a dead match. Plus, think about it. He was apparently the only one that Aizen particularly favored out of all the Espada. Ulquiorra was also, apparently, the most wisest, sophisticated, level-headed and rational of all the Espada. This in itself doesn't prove anything but it does suggest a more higher mental/psychological development from Hollow to Shinigami. My age-old theory is that Ulquiorra was a failed Vasto Lorde Arrancar. Because of this he turned out weaker than his full potential, but he was still powerful enough to rank at #4.

    I also don't see any other reason why Ulquiorra was the only one to reach a Segundo Etapa stage:
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/...chapter/348/10
    I admit there could be other reasons to explain this, but the most apparent explanation is a good one to go by - Occam's Razor.

    Not to mention Ulquiorra killed Ichigo. Ichigo died. He didn't get knocked out and woke up. He died:
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/...chapter/348/21
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/...chapter/348/22
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/.../chapter/349/4
    http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/.../chapter/349/5
    I mean, look, it doesn't matter what kind of Human or Shinigami you are. No one can survive a hole the size of your head in your chest. He died and came back by a plot device a.k.a his Hollow Stage 2. If Kubo didn't want to convey Ulquiorra's exceptional power then he wouldn't have had him kill his main character. Even without Ichigo's death Kubo could still have revealed Ichigo's Hollow Stage 2



    I suppose it's always possible for the Top 3 Espada to be Vasto Lorde as well. I'm not denying that (although I do have my personal reservations). I'm just saying it seems like there's a lot more support for the fact that Ulquiorra was a Vasto Lorde than any of the other Top 3 Espada.
     
         
    Last edited by NLee; 02-24-2012 at 11:52 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    um..halibel was a vl before joining aizen...
     
         

  11. #11
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by alipjana View Post
    um..halibel was a vl before joining aizen...
    And that's an incredibly pathetic portrayal of a Vasto Lorde considering Hitsugaya was able to fight her on even ground.

    Even more so considering she was an Arrancar
     
         

  12. #12
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by NLee View Post
    And that's an incredibly pathetic portrayal of a Vasto Lorde considering Hitsugaya was able to fight her on even ground.

    Even more so considering she was an Arrancar
    Yeah sorry i knew this guy with two ballfaces said something of being the only "something" thought it was vasto lord, but it was gillian
    Well then it must be 4 and above, but my argument is still plausible.
     
         

  13. #13
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by mlickko View Post
    Soo, i know that there were threads about Vasto Lorde but let me ask differently.

    During Arrancar arc, Toshiro explained to us that Vasto Lorde is an evolved form of Adjuchas and that it's the most powerfull form of the fusion of Hollows.

    BUT we actually never saw a Vasto Lorde with our own eyes. You may protest that Espada or some of Espada were in fact VL but there wasn't given any solid proof. At Toshiro's explaining we saw a silhouette of VL:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach...er/197/page/19
    and we can clearly see a pair of thorns.

    Now, there wasn't anyone among Espada that had thorns...maybe aside from Ulquiorra in his Segunda Etapa:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach...er/347/page/18

    There was a debate, if there was a possibility that Ichigo in his H2 form was actually VL as he resembled a VL the best:
    http://www.mangabit.com/manga/bleach/chapter/350/page/5
    VL should be the strongest Hollow...and if we take the possibility of Ichigo in this form being a VL we can easily say that if all VL should be that strong, Gotei 13 would be in crisis. Why? In this form Ichigo's power levels were....
    I would say he was slightly weaker than in his post-Dangai form and that is holly-molly crazy strong. WTH . His intelligence was low but w/e. And btw i don't think that Ichigo's H2 form was a plot hole...

    Now, my real question is this: Why didn't we see any VL and do you think we will ever see them, or will they be forgotten? I would really like to see VL because in my opinion Espada weren't VL.

    Peace :izuna:
    it kinda looks like ulquiorra tho :shrug: but i think ichigo h2 looks like a VL but im concerned bout dis *****
     
         

  14. #14
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    no...stark and ulquira nobody were vasto lorde..the only person who was confirmed to be a vasto lorde is halibel.....
     
         

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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    VL quincys
     
         

  16. #16
    The White Demon Totsuka No Tsurugi's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    almost all espada is vasta lorde, i mean vasta lorde is just another name for arrancar,
    ulqiorra,halibel,barragan and stark already become vasta lorde before they meet aizen,

    the rest become vasta lorde thanks to the hogyouku
     
         

  17. #17
    Senior Member NLee's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    almost all espada is vasta lorde, i mean vasta lorde is just another name for arrancar,
    ulqiorra,halibel,barragan and stark already become vasta lorde before they meet aizen,

    the rest become vasta lorde thanks to the hogyouku
    No. Absolutely wrong.

    Vasto Lorde is not another name for Arrancar.

    Vasto Lorde are the highest class of Menos Grande.
    Arrancar are Hollows who have lost their mask and have attained Shinigami powers.

    Grimmjow was an Adjuchas. Just because he was turned into an Arrancar does not make him a Vasto Lorde. He's still an ex-Adjuchas Arrancar. Same goes for Yammy, and likely Zommari and Szayel. Aaroniero was a Gillian before being made an Arrancar. It doesn't make him a Vasto Lorde. It makes him an ex-Gillian Arrancar.

    I explained this in my post above.
     
         

  18. #18
    The White Demon Totsuka No Tsurugi's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    if there is a higher level than stark aizen would have recruit them in,

    after adjudchas, its vasta lorde, guess what grimjow is adjuchas then with the hyogoku he turned into arrancar/vasta lorde, its just another name LOL

    "the strength of a single vasta lorde is above that of any captain"

    hype ?
    well the original vasta lorde ulqioarra halibel barragan and stark all of them trash their opponent and it need 2 captain level fighters to handle them, that's settle it,

    its just another name
     
         

  19. #19
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by NLee View Post
    No. Absolutely wrong.

    Vasto Lorde is not another name for Arrancar.

    Vasto Lorde are the highest class of Menos Grande.
    Arrancar are Hollows who have lost their mask and have attained Shinigami powers.

    Grimmjow was an Adjuchas. Just because he was turned into an Arrancar does not make him a Vasto Lorde. He's still an ex-Adjuchas Arrancar. Same goes for Yammy, and likely Zommari and Szayel. Aaroniero was a Gillian before being made an Arrancar. It doesn't make him a Vasto Lorde. It makes him an ex-Gillian Arrancar.

    I explained this in my post above.
    not true, you cannot prove that grimmjow was not a vasto lorde, i have my doubts about him being weaker than Nnoritora, When he first apperaed NOT in his ressurection form, rukia and hitsugaya noted of his unrealistic spiritual pressure,
     
         

  20. #20
    Senior Member NLee's Avatar
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    if there is a higher level than stark aizen would have recruit them in,

    after adjudchas, its vasta lorde, guess what grimjow is adjuchas then with the hyogoku he turned into arrancar/vasta lorde, its just another name LOL
    No, you don't get it. Vasto Lorde is not the same thing as an Arrancar. They are completely separate things.


    A Vasto Lorde is a Hollow. The strongest type of Menos Grande but still only a Hollow.
    An Arrancar is a Hollow that has attained Shinigami powers.
    Vasto Lorde do not have Shinigami powers. They are still only Hollows.


    Quote Originally Posted by Totsuka No Tsurugi View Post
    well the original vasta lorde ulqioarra halibel barragan and stark all of them trash their opponent and it need 2 captain level fighters to handle them, that's settle it,

    its just another name
    No. It's not another name...

    What difference does it make if Stark, Barragan and Halibel trashed their opponents? That doesn't change a single thing. They were made into Arrancars by Aizen. Whether or not they were Vasto Lorde before becoming Arrancars is what matters. Vasto Lorde and Arrancar are not one in the same. It's like saying Captains are the same as Vizards which is completely wrong.

    -Captains are the strongest of the Shinigami, but they are still 100% Shinigami.
    -Vizards are Shinigami who have attained Hollow powers.

    It's the exact same comparison:
    -Vasto Lorde are the strongest of the Hollow, but they are still 100% Hollows.
    -Arrancars are Hollows who have attained Shinigami powers.

    Honestly, anyone who follows Bleach would clearly understand this. It's not a hard concept.


    Quote Originally Posted by JirayiaRIPforever View Post
    not true, you cannot prove that grimmjow was not a vasto lorde, i have my doubts about him being weaker than Nnoritora, When he first apperaed NOT in his ressurection form, rukia and hitsugaya noted of his unrealistic spiritual pressure,
    I posted the manga pages where it proves Grimmjow was an Adjuchas before becoming an Arrancar on the last page.

    At least have the decency to read the entire thread before retorting. Especially if it's only a 2 pages thread.
     
         
    Last edited by NLee; 02-26-2012 at 10:03 PM.

  21. #21
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by NLee View Post
    No, you don't get it. Vasto Lorde is not the same thing as an Arrancar. They are completely separate things.


    A Vasto Lorde is a Hollow. The strongest type of Menos Grande but still only a Hollow.
    An Arrancar is a Hollow that has attained Shinigami powers.
    Vasto Lorde do not have Shinigami powers. They are still only Hollows.




    No. It's not another name...

    What difference does it make if Stark, Barragan and Halibel trashed their opponents? That doesn't change a single thing. They were made into Arrancars by Aizen. Whether or not they were Vasto Lorde before becoming Arrancars is what matters. Vasto Lorde and Arrancar are not one in the same. It's like saying Captains are the same as Vizards which is completely wrong.

    -Captains are the strongest of the Shinigami, but they are still 100% Shinigami.
    -Vizards are Shinigami who have attained Hollow powers.

    It's the exact same comparison:
    -Vasto Lorde are the strongest of the Hollow, but they are still 100% Hollows.
    -Arrancars are Hollows who have attained Shinigami powers.

    Honestly, anyone who follows Bleach would clearly understand this. It's not a hard concept.




    I posted the manga pages where it proves Grimmjow was an Adjuchas before becoming an Arrancar on the last page.

    At least have the decency to read the entire thread before retorting. Especially if it's only a 2 pages thread.

    That doesn't prove anything, We only saw him in his adjuchas form, and i did read it before posting, we will have to wait and see
     
         

  22. #22
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by JirayiaRIPforever View Post
    That doesn't prove anything, We only saw him in his adjuchas form, and i did read it before posting, we will have to wait and see
    That is the point.. We saw him in his adjuchas form and then later as an Arrancar. Do you think he was an Arrancar that turned into an adjuchas?

    Arrancar is defined as a hollow that has ripped off their mask. The higher level menos the stronger the arrancar.
    -Therefore Grimmjow who was a adjuchas removed his mask and became the 6th espada. Whereas Aaroniero who was only a Gillian became the 9th Espada.

    Vasta Lorde is pretty much the highest level of hollow which evolves from adjuchas. It is not the same as an arrancar.
     
         

  23. #23
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by lubricati0n View Post
    That is the point.. We saw him in his adjuchas form and then later as an Arrancar. Do you think he was an Arrancar that turned into an adjuchas?

    Arrancar is defined as a hollow that has ripped off their mask. The higher level menos the stronger the arrancar.
    -Therefore Grimmjow who was a adjuchas removed his mask and became the 6th espada. Whereas Aaroniero who was only a Gillian became the 9th Espada.

    Vasta Lorde is pretty much the highest level of hollow which evolves from adjuchas. It is not the same as an arrancar.
    i know what arrancars, and the different classes of menos are... I NEVER said vasto lorde was the same as an arrancar because its absolutely not the same thing. just because we saw him in adjuchas form but not vasto lorde form doesn't mean he didn't become a vasto lorde

    I doubt that Grimmjow was not a vasto lorde, and you cant prove that he was or he wasn't until its stated what he was before becoming an arrancar,
     
         

  24. #24
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by JirayiaRIPforever View Post
    i know what arrancars, and the different classes of menos are... I NEVER said vasto lorde was the same as an arrancar because its absolutely not the same thing. just because we saw him in adjuchas form but not vasto lorde form doesn't mean he didn't become a vasto lorde

    I doubt that Grimmjow was not a vasto lorde, and you cant prove that he was or he wasn't until its stated what he was before becoming an arrancar,
    lol you just proved yourself wrong.

    Vasto Lorde is the final form of hollow and Hitsuguya even stated the power-level of a Vasto Lorde far surpasses a captains and that if Aizen could assemble 10 of them, Soul Society would be doomed.

    Now Grimmjow was the 6th espada and lost to Ichigo who is pretty much at captain level(people overrate Ichigo tbh). The 5th espada Nnoitra was defeated by Kenpachi. If Grimmjow is VL then that means so is Nnoitra. But none of them far surpassed there opponents power levels. There battles were pretty much evenly matched.
     
         

  25. #25
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    Re: Theory: Vasto Lorde

    Quote Originally Posted by lubricati0n View Post
    lol you just proved yourself wrong.

    Vasto Lorde is the final form of hollow and Hitsuguya even stated the power-level of a Vasto Lorde far surpasses a captains and that if Aizen could assemble 10 of them, Soul Society would be doomed.

    Now Grimmjow was the 6th espada and lost to Ichigo who is pretty much at captain level(people overrate Ichigo tbh). The 5th espada Nnoitra was defeated by Kenpachi. If Grimmjow is VL then that means so is Nnoitra. But none of them far surpassed there opponents power levels. There battles were pretty much evenly matched.
    first of all he only assembled 6 at best, and Ichigo really isn't overrated that much, Kenpachi, is kenpachi... GL KILLING HIM, and i think that grimmjow could have beaten Nnoitra, and um staark,Barragan,Hallibel all FAR surpassed their opponents power levels. you have said nothing what so ever that proves Grimmjow or higher espada were not vasto lorde as of yet
     
         

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