Round 1 Pool 1: Piratefish vs. Kidgamer65

  1. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    Information on the opposing combatants is more beneficial for Deidara than for Kakuzu, as he'll now be aware of the type and scope of Kakuzu's elemental ninjutsu, elemental combinations, individual mask capabilities and monstrous alternate forms. If he couldn't evade them before (he could have) there's simply no chance he'll be hit now, unless several masks are working together. Which puts them at serious risk. Kakuzu also has intel, but it's less helpful for him. Clay Clone substitutions won't be (as) effective, but a large amount of Deidara's techniques are very difficult to evade or dodge even WITH information. Homing Dragons, homing birds, aerial mine barrages, C4, C3 and especially C0 (try evading THAT without an S/T on your side) mean that even with full intel escaping Deidara is VERY difficult.

    C1 bombs would have little effect on Kakuzu himself, true. They WOULD destroy any Mask they got a solid hit on. Kakuzu's Masks are basically a thin layer of Jiongu surrounding a human heart, not the most explosion-proof thing in existence, and the hearts' precise location is shown through the Masks position. C1 WOULD be an effective distraction if it hit Kakuzu himself though, even if it didn't cause any damage.

    The C2 Dragon can easily be made while already airborne, its slightly slower takeoff-speed won't be a problem. The mines can either be places underground by a Clay Clone, or scattered in large amounts from above. They're sensitive, pressure-detonated explosives, and would explode the instant they fell on something, be it the ground, Kakuzu, or his Masks. As you yourself showed, the Guided Missile Dragons are quite fast, able to divert Sasuke's charge before he'd managed to advance more than a few metres further:


    If he'd gotten close, the Missile would have detonated the mines as well, and as such even the C2 Dragon would have been at risk.

    Lumpy Dragons are fast enough to hit Second-stage Curse Seal Sasuke, and produce a SIZEABLE explosion:

    As this was enough to simply DESTROY 2CS Sasuke's wing, even with what can't be assumed to be a direct hit, it seems more than possible that it cound at least SINGE Kakuzu even through his Earth Spear with a solid hit. And yes, the wing is FAR more durable than Base Sasuke. Curse Seals utilize what's basically a bastardized version of Sage Mode, and Sages are extremely durable, as are CS users:





    Members of the Sound Four being vanquished by direct, physical attacks while CS is active require MASSIVELY strong ones to be defeated:

  2. KidGamer65
    KidGamer65
    Kakuzu's Wind Style and Fire Style have a wide radius of destruction so any incoming C1 bombs would be vaporized by Fire Style or knocked away by Wind Style, or Kakuzu can combine them both together for an increased attack radius and attack power.


    To counter the landmines, Kakuzu can use a lightning+fire combo to make it rain, then he can use his Raiton to electrify the ground, defusing any mines in the area. To counter them from above, his Wind Mask can detach from his body and that will be ready at all times, to use a Fuuton to blow them away from Kakuzu/

    If Deidara is in the air, Kakuzu could pressure his bird with multiple elemental attacks....the main objective would be to hit him, but Kakuzu could also try and get at least one of the wings of the bird. When Sasuke clipped one of the wings, the bird started to fall towards the ground.
    So even if he doesn't land a direct hit, Deidara will be forced to the ground. And Deidara will have to get out his smaller bird like he did vs. Sasuke, but Kakuzu can fire more shots at him, to pressure him and take him out of the air.


    Kakuzu can also use the adjacent forest to his advantage..for exanple, he could hide in the forest so Deidara can't locate him immediately, then he can prepare his combination attack with his masks to try and blow him out of the air.

    The Guided Missiles and any other projectiles except for maybe C3 will be b vaporized/blown away/deactivated via Raiton/Fuuton/Katon.
    It will be fairly easy to hit them, since they will be coming directly at him, and they are coming from a considerable distance away.

    As for C3, well, if Kakuzu retreats into the forest when Deidara takes flight and splits all his masks apart except for the Earth one; he can take cover in the forest to hide himself from Deidara's sight. If Deidara drops a C3 to clear him out along with the forest, the lightning mask can fire a Raiton to disable the bomb, couple this with the Triple attack I mentioned earlier to take him out of the air...he could very well beat him.
  3. Floydical
    Floydical
    This debate will close on the 9th around the same time it was posted if no extension is requested.
  4. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    C1 bombs wouldn't be vaporized by any Katon which hit them, they'd be DETONATED, with the power of the Fire only adding to the ensuing explosion. If the Masks are far enough away, then that's fine. BUT, if they're close enough, the following blast would damage or destroy the Heart as well:


    This, for example, is more than close enough for a crippling/lethal (for a Heart) explosion. Naruto's clones are actually a good example of how close to Kakuzu a few C1 bombs can get, for while they aren't explosive themselves, they are covering for a Rasenshruiken, which is more than potent enough that Kakuzu should want to detonate it as far away from him as possible. Instead, one got right up into touching range. Twice.


    Any moment where Kakuzu's Masks are focused on something other than the bombs Deidara is actively producing is a potentially fatal distraction for them. And even damp earth doesn't conduct electricity very well, so countering mines already placed in the ground will be a VERY lengthy process, involving SCOURING EVERY INCH OF GROUND with bursts of Gian. Chakra-intensive and mostly useless, opening many opportunities for counterattack. There are simply too many mines, when properly spread out, for ANY single technique to deal with:


    Even if his mount is destroyed, Deidara has plenty of time to make a new one before being reduced to fighting on the ground:



    Having an arm crushed, or being pinned to his falling Dragon while flying only BARELY high enough to evade Sasuke's 5 meter range with the Chidori Spear gives Deidara ample time to stay in the air. Not that escaping into the air is any harder for him once he's down there:



    Using surrounding landscape as a defense against Deidara is simply a laughable tactic: ANY bomb, C2 and above, will obliterate any possible hiding place quickly:




    In addition, hiding and planning only gives Deidara time to use C4.


    Guided Missiles may be linear but they are FAST, if Deidara uses them while Kakuzu is focused on something else they could take out a Mask or two.

    C3 can be detonated while in the air, rendering Raiton counterattacks not quite useless but LESS effective, as it will still explode. It will be slightly further away, but with C3's massive range that doesn't really matter. And Deidara is not above using the C3 as a distraction:


    Even a multilayered one. C3 allows Deidara to use his other nasties while Kakuzu is distracted defusing it, leaving him vulnerable to C4 and even precise C2 bombs. Kakuzu has only one Lightning Mask. There are two bombs that MUST be defused in order for him to survive...
  5. KidGamer65
    KidGamer65
    "This, for example, is more than close enough for a crippling/lethal (for a Heart) explosion. Naruto's clones are actually a good example of how close to Kakuzu a few C1 bombs can get, for while they aren't explosive themselves, they are covering for a Rasenshruiken, which is more than potent enough that Kakuzu should want to detonate it as far away from him as possible. Instead, one got right up into touching range. Twice."

    Using clones to see how close the bombs will get is not a good comparison because first of all, the clones are moving human beings that can easily alter their course, and his bombs can't move how Naruto's clones did so that isn't a good comparison.

    "Any moment where Kakuzu's Masks are focused on something other than the bombs Deidara is actively producing is a potentially fatal distraction for them. And even damp earth doesn't conduct electricity very well, so countering mines already placed in the ground will be a VERY lengthy process, involving SCOURING EVERY INCH OF GROUND with bursts of Gian. Chakra-intensive and mostly useless, opening many opportunities for counterattack. There are simply too many mines, when properly spread out, for ANY single technique to deal with:"

    With Kakuzu's masks being able to split from him, Deidara's clone isn't going to get very many bombs into the ground espcially since it will be a very lengthy process.

    "Even if his mount is destroyed, Deidara has plenty of time to make a new one before being reduced to fighting on the ground"

    He won't have plenty of time when another attack is coming right after the first one that knocked him off, against Sasuke, their was a gap between Deidara being pinned onto his bird, and his bird getting hit, if another blast is coming at him shot a few seconds right after the first one, Deidara isn't going to be able to make another mount.


    "Using surrounding landscape as a defense against Deidara is simply a laughable tactic: ANY bomb, C2 and above, will obliterate any possible hiding place quickly"

    Kakuzu has the whole forest to hide himself in and Deidara's bombs (Except C3 and C4) can take him out while he is hiding in there.
    If a C2 Guided Missiles is coming at him, the Raiton Mask can disable it.

    "In addition, hiding and planning only gives Deidara time to use C4.

    As soon as Kakuzu is in the forest, multiple attacks will be coming at him, i'm sure he won't have time to set up C4.


    Guided Missiles may be linear but they are FAST, if Deidara uses them while Kakuzu is focused on something else they could take out a Mask or two.

    C3 can be detonated while in the air, rendering Raiton counterattacks not quite useless but LESS effective, as it will still explode. It will be slightly further away, but with C3's massive range that doesn't really matter. And Deidara is not above using the C3 as a distraction"

    There won't even need to be any planning involved, he just needs to use the forest as cover, not as a hiding place.

    What else could Kakuzu possibly be focused on? And his masks can split from his body so if he isn't paying attention for whatever reason, then his mask will blast it for him.

    "Even a multilayered one. C3 allows Deidara to use his other nasties while Kakuzu is distracted defusing it, leaving him vulnerable to C4 and even precise C2 bombs. Kakuzu has only one Lightning Mask. There are two bombs that MUST be defused in order for him to survive..."

    While Raiton is busy with C3, Fuuton or Katon can take care of C2.

    Kakuzu has knowledge, so he will know what C3 looks like beforehand, and Deidara has to expand the bomb, making ii more visible, then he drops it, When Kakuzu catches sight of it, he can firs his Katon combined with Fuuton at it, once the Katon hits, the bomb will go off, and will kill Deidara.
  6. Piratefish
    Piratefish
    "Using clones to see how close the bombs will get is not a good comparison because first of all, the clones are moving human beings that can easily alter their course, and his bombs can't move how Naruto's clones did so that isn't a good comparison."

    Bombs are FAR faster, appear to be independent to a certain degree, and are EXTREMELY maneuverable. They can FLY, and have MANY more options for dodging than the clones do. If anything, the bombs would be HARDER to avoid:

    Here seen forcing Gaara to use his sand orb to survive.

    "With Kakuzu's masks being able to split from him, Deidara's clone isn't going to get very many bombs into the ground espcially since it will be a very lengthy process."

    No. The clone is underground and thus exempt from most if not all of Kakuzu's attacks (depending on how FAR down it is) and PLACING the mines is a fairly quick and painless process. Deidara has time to fire off two Guided Dragons, and Sasuke one Chidori Spear, before ALL the mines were placed by Tobi. And Deidara's clone, having WAY more experience with such things, would doubtless be quicker.

    "He won't have plenty of time when another attack is coming right after the first one that knocked him off, against Sasuke, their was a gap between Deidara being pinned onto his bird, and his bird getting hit, if another blast is coming at him shot a few seconds right after the first one, Deidara isn't going to be able to make another mount."

    The screenshot you used was a bit odd, from before Deidara was ever hit by the shruiken. Here are some better illustrations:


    And THERE is when Deidara BEGINS to extract himself from the shruiken. He still has plenty of time to make a bird before crashing.

    "Kakuzu has the whole forest to hide himself in and Deidara's bombs (Except C3 and C4) can take him out while he is hiding in there.
    If a C2 Guided Missiles is coming at him, the Raiton Mask can disable it."


    Not witout giving away either his own or the Raiton Mask's position. It would mean the next attack Deidara used (C3 or 4) would be out of reach for a Raiton, and thus match-ending.

    "As soon as Kakuzu is in the forest, multiple attacks will be coming at him, i'm sure he won't have time to set up C4."

    Kakuzu hiding in the forest gives HIM time to attack, but not Deidara. I see. C4 is fairly quick to deploy, S2CS Sasuke was caught in one, when all he had to do to get out was remove his arm from a Clay Clone.

    "There won't even need to be any planning involved, he just needs to use the forest as cover, not as a hiding place.

    What else could Kakuzu possibly be focused on? And his masks can split from his body so if he isn't paying attention for whatever reason, then his mask will blast it for him.
    "

    If he is using cover, it means he is allowing Deidara the offensive. And Deidara relishes in being on the offensive.

    Well, he'd have to choose between focusing on C3 or C4.

    "While Raiton is busy with C3, Fuuton or Katon can take care of C2.

    Kakuzu has knowledge, so he will know what C3 looks like beforehand, and Deidara has to expand the bomb, making ii more visible, then he drops it, When Kakuzu catches sight of it, he can firs his Katon combined with Fuuton at it, once the Katon hits, the bomb will go off, and will kill Deidara."


    If Deidara was at all likely to perish in his own explosions, it would have happened before he was ever approached by Akatsuki. And apply the large-scale destruction of an Elemental Combo to a C3 bomb seems like a bad idea, not least because DEIDARA would have an easier time escaping the blast-radius than Kakuzu. Also, regarding my original statement, WHICH Mask would "take care" of C4?
  7. Floydical
    Floydical
    This match is closed for judging.
  8. ~Uzumaki~
    ~Uzumaki~
    You both played well, I was really impressed with the points both of you gave but I feel piratefish was the better debater here. If Kidgamer65 had made more posts with more detail then things would have swung to his favor but he didn't really say much and piratefish countered his post and he didn't post a rebuttal. Winner in my opinion-piratefish
  9. Floydical
    Floydical
    Piratefish, very few flaws overall but I'm surprised you pulled out so many cards right off the bat. Normally someone will hold back some of their later techniques for future counters, but I think your tactic works well for you. I did see some flaws with your ideas, most notably how Deidara would successfully make use of his mines without Tobi's help and how Kakuzu knows about C4 so he wouldn't let himself be in range of the explosion. But overall, I think you did a very thorough job when it came to defining your combatant and sizing up your opponent. When it came to your later idea about utilizing the bombs without being buried, I think its a great idea but I wasn't sold on it right away. I think based on how we learned about the jutsu, it wasn't intended to be used like that. Either way, I couldn't say for certain that dropping them wouldn't set them off, so I commend your ingenuity on the matter.

    KidGamer65, I like your points and I think you did a great job overall. I like that you were very keen to point out the weaknesses in Piratfish's arguments that you did. I feel that you created some very beneficial scenarios for Kakuzu and made the match quite exciting. However, I did not really get your Fire+ lighning combo = rain. I can see that you are implying the combination can start a storm but you didn't explain this well and honestly I think its improbable. I think you would have been better off claiming the water mask can simply make it rain because that wouldn't technically count as a jutsu and that might have done yourself a little more good. I did love your tactic regarding using the forest to Kakuzu's advantage, it certainly would give him a way to dodge or escape Deidara.

    Overall, I feel that you both did a really good job with this debate. Piratefish, you had a very strong intro and Kidgamer65 you really came on strong yourself and made some very good counters. In the end, I feel that Piratefish's sheer detail and effort won him the day. Despite some of Kidgamer65's strong points, good counters and well-executed tactics later on, I feel that Piratefish simply explained and detailed-out his counters and game plans too well to be beaten. Again, I want to commend your both on your efforts and your attention to detail. I think you both deserve to move on and I can't wait to see both of your guys' second round 1 matches.
  10. Owarij
    Owarij
    Now this was a great read..Both of you did absolutely excellent when it came to your points.. but Piratefish had so much more detail put into his posts.. especially at the beginning .
    Though just alot of words aren't enough to win a debate.. piratefish still maintained logical points , tactics and counter tactics....

    KidGamer, you also had great points but I feel like you didn't explain them enough, In a few cases you countered Pirate's paragraphs with just a line or two, but in others I feel like he won them...

    Close match, All in all I'll give this to Piratefish
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